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Level Clearing

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Re: Level Clearing

Postby tenta » 01 Aug 2012, 20:50

SyStemkraSh5642 wrote:@ tenta:
Spoiler: show
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Just a question: How are you supposed to get up here normally? I used a homing bullet bill, but I don't think you intended for that to be the solution...
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You can get under the ground by going through the watermelon slice on the left side.
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On the midway point entrance, I was immediately hit by a homing bill.

Fix these issues and I'll review it again.


For the chest
Spoiler: show
I didn't even noticed there was a missing dotted line block...


for the watermelon i really have no idea how to fix the going through the ground problem :/...
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby alex2 » 01 Aug 2012, 21:39

Don't use MAP16 to insert the watermelon block.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby tenta » 01 Aug 2012, 22:10

alex2 wrote:Don't use MAP16 to insert the watermelon block.


I used Extended objects.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby alex2 » 01 Aug 2012, 22:17

Then the tile under the watermelon is wrong.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 01 Aug 2012, 23:47

limepie20 wrote:Diamond learning issues


As it is the endgame, I would like to not be reducing my level just for the sake of easiness. Most endgame levels will have the majority of players dying a lot, and it should be for good reasons. Having a coin game to learn a gimmick is already a bit much for a endgame. Respectfully sir, I would like to keep the difficulty at least at this level.

limepie20 wrote:theme issues

Spoiler: show
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As much as I would like Dinotorches and the diamonds to dance together like Sine and Cosine in a little romance called math, Designing levels with constantly new platforming challenges tend to add variables. My future vision will fuse these two themes will involve more more diamonds, but nothing that make them harder by themselves.

It will be a while before my next version, and it will be more that a few tweaks.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby limepie20 » 01 Aug 2012, 23:56

I'm very glad you decided to keep working on your level to improve it rather than submitting it with Systemkrash's approval. Your level can be even better, and I can't wait to see it.

I completely agree with you that the difficulty should be high. There's no reason for making your level easy at all. I understand why it may sound like I'm asking for the level to be easier, but I actually want it to be less frustrating and conversely more fun. When I was playing your level these past few times, I wasn't having fun with the diamonds because I didn't learn how to use them. You really do need some introduction to ease the player in, and then you can make it as hard (as long as it is fair) as you want. What I mean by this is just have a harmless jump that requires a very high jump, and another one that requires a long one, so people figure out what's going on.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby tenta » 03 Aug 2012, 00:58

Ok i finally fixed that watermelon problem. Fixed evetyrhing systemKrash told me and i change the saws even if i don't like the colors and i didn't find the color it the palette editor.

Edit: I will replace the P-switch run.
Last edited by tenta on 03 Aug 2012, 01:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby limepie20 » 03 Aug 2012, 01:14

Please fix replace the p-switch run with something else.

limepie20 wrote:The first p-switch run was just too unfair. It's single block jumping which is hard on it's own, but you have the slipperyness and the bullet bills to throw you off, too. Plus, the level's theme has nothing that suggests a p-switch run, so it also feels out of place.


Your level will be a lot more fun.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby tenta » 03 Aug 2012, 01:53

Here i removed the P-switch run.

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Re: Level Clearing

Postby tenta » 11 Aug 2012, 03:09

Well?
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby alex2 » 11 Aug 2012, 14:09

Don't get testy. Be patient.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby limepie20 » 11 Aug 2012, 14:13

tenta:
Oh, sorry. Thanks for reminding me. You fixed the very outline of the watermelons, but there is still a layer of black between the green outline and the red stuff. Just compare yours to the ones in level 105.
You still need to fix the cement blocks, and the saw munchers don't look good either. Hey, I see you are having trouble with the palette. You want me to just fix the things and send you a palette file?
Also, I don't really enjoy the section you replaced the p-switch run with because it harbors the same aspects I disliked. The whole section is jumping around on one tile platforms, and it is frustrating, not fun, especially in a slippery level. Try replacing it with something new.

alex:
Hey, it's fine. Level designers should remind us of their levels if we are taking a while to test. After all, testing doesn't take a week, but getting to testing might.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 11 Aug 2012, 20:03

I was a bit difficult to get the enemies to work with the terrain. It's consistently chaotic at the very least.

http://www.mediafire.com/?8ktu2bflfje5e0x

edit: Fixed something at screen A you probably wouldn't find.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby limepie20 » 11 Aug 2012, 21:39

Septentrion:
I see that you've tried incorporating the diamonds more into your level, and you have successfully made them more prominent. The theme clash I talked about last time isn't as bad. I do understand you must really like these two themes because you decided to keep both of them instead of one. I know how you feel as a designer. They are both nice ideas. As well as you, I like the dino torch spawner. I can see why you like the diamonds, too. I hate to give you a hard decision, but I feel it will be in your best interest to revolve your level around one of the two themes, not both. You did a good job trying to combine both themes in one level, but after playing this, I feel these two themes don't really mix.
Although both themes are seen throughout the level, they don't fit together very well, and I hope I can explain to you what I mean. Dino torches are primarily on the ground; they walk and are useless if they fall. Diamonds are primarily in the air above abysses; they are jumping obstacles, and if you fall, you die. They don't fit together because the spawners need to be in a place with land, and diamonds need to be in a place without land. The result is many sections of the level focusing on one theme but not both. Your level is kinda drawn out. It's a bit too long for a p-switch sublevel, and I don't blame you. You are trying to stuff two themes into one level.
I'm gonna try to help you out a bit. Here's what I like and dislike about both themes:

Dino torch spawner:
Positive
  • Easy to use creatively
  • Easy concept to grasp (play already familiar with spawners and dino torches)
Negative
  • Useless around abysses
Diamonds:
Positive
  • Unique
  • Dynamic
Negative
  • Requires active design of punishment (e.g. putting them above abysses)
  • Hard to learn
  • Feels frustrating and unfair without learning proper technique

If you feel that you shouldn't choose between one of these two themes, please tell me you do and explain why, so we can talk this out. I am not bent on this resolution; I'd like you to agree.
And if I haven't made it clear, I really think a level based around the spawners rather than the diamonds would be a lot more fun. I hope you prefer the spawners, too because more people may like your level better.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 11 Aug 2012, 23:07

limepie20 wrote:Septentrion:
I hate to give you a hard decision, but I feel it will be in your best interest to revolve your level around one of the two themes, not both. You did a good job trying to combine both themes in one level, but after playing this, I feel these two themes don't really mix.
Although both themes are seen throughout the level, they don't fit together very well, and I hope I can explain to you what I mean. Dino torches are primarily on the ground; they walk and are useless if they fall. Diamonds are primarily in the air above abysses; they are jumping obstacles, and if you fall, you die. They don't fit together because the spawners need to be in a place with land, and diamonds need to be in a place without land. The result is many sections of the level focusing on one theme but not both. Your level is kinda drawn out. It's a bit too long for a p-switch sublevel, and I don't blame you. You are trying to stuff two themes into one level.


I combined the themes as well as possible gameplay wise. The torches disrupt optimal jumping conditions much of the time while the generator makes it impossible to clear the area. The are even several places were they interact with the player while he/she is on the slopes or even midjump. Torches are also a common enemy type(in A2MT) and barely qualifies as a theme.
We've also greatly discussed the difficulty of the diamonds

The level only feels longer then most switch sublevels, which have been argued to be to short for an endgame. It just has a lot going on, which a many players can appreciate(as well as the people from youtube). I can deal with slight changes, but throwing large these concepts is asking to much. It's very unique at this point and I don't what to lose any of it.

I have a question about the overworld placement of the switches. Are each of them placed on equally difficult paths, or more random paths?
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby limepie20 » 11 Aug 2012, 23:21

I have a question about the overworld placement of the switches. Are each of them placed on equally difficult paths, or more random paths?

Each switch level should be equal in difficulty.

Septentrion Pleiades wrote:The level only feels longer then most switch sublevels, which have been argued to be to short for an endgame.

Actually, I think you're right. I can agree with you.

Septentrion Pleiades wrote:It just has a lot going on, which a many players can appreciate(as well as the people from youtube). I can deal with slight changes, but throwing large these concepts is asking to much. It's very unique at this point and I don't what to lose any of it.

I highly respect the way you feel and can sympathize. I was in a similar position when I was working on my first level for a2mt. There were flaws regarding the main gimmick of my level that I felt could be accepted without fixing. Eventually I tried fixing them and ultimately liked my level better. Now, I'm not saying there are lots of flaws that need fixing and your level will definitely be better if you change it the way I think. Make a copy of your level and redesign it, so you are only utilizing one of your two themes and see if you like the level any better. If you don't like it, your old level isn't gone. Try some different things and pick what you like best. After all, it's hard to compare when you don't have anything tangible to compare to, right?
We aren't in any rush. As long as I know you are working on your level, there is no problem. I feel we can all improve ourselves from this experience. I believe I improved greatly after getting my first level cleared. Today I would go back and fix some things in that level because I have improved since. Let's just try things out and see how they work. Again, my opinion isn't right; it could be wrong for all I know. I think we could just more easily compare with tangible levels. Does this sound alright?
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 11 Aug 2012, 23:56

This is hardly my first level, speaking of which

Spoiler: show
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You should also do something about the death glitch that happens if you are on the ground during the water transition.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby limepie20 » 12 Aug 2012, 00:43

Thanks for letting me know; I'll definitely try to get that stuff fixed.
Hey, I appreciate you playing through my levels and finding errors. Really it is a great deal of help because my levels are only in this hack because of testers who are willing to help out. Don't be afraid to point out any problems you have with any level in the rom.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 12 Aug 2012, 02:15

It's easy to tell the testing and clearing process wasn't as thorough back then. We may have to split up into teams right before release to make sure there aren't any issues. I suggest 4 team of 2 for each switch path.

As for my level, I'm quite satisfied with it's gameplay, although the aesthetics will be improved a bit. It will be hard remaking it completely twice. I've considered both option themes.

Torches:
Requires ridiculous cunning on every part in level design.
Already explored to a great extent in other levels
More slowdown
More square looking level

Diamonds:
a bit repetitive.
Down is a bad direction to work with
I like dino torches

I thought up a good concept for a diamond level, but it won't work well with the graphics, and would require a lot more work. It's essentially asking me to preemptively make a complete new high quality level just in case I feel that this one, isn't as good.
The thing is, I like the busyness of this level and you don't. I actually think it have could be busier. Earlier systemkrash cleared my level, and you revoked it due to not understanding the diamonds. Could you just accept that there's going to be a difference of opinion regarding the overall feel of the level?
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby limepie20 » 12 Aug 2012, 03:07

Revoking his clearing goes against my code of "if one person thinks it's right, I won't intervene." I've thought about my revocation, and I'd like to apologize for it. You have the right to submit the version Systemkrash cleared. I just at the time felt I needed to do something quickly, and it was more of an impulse than a thought-out action.
Even though your level is cleared, I'd still really like you to continue working on it and improving it. Of course, you don't have to because your level is cleared.
My goal is to make sure every level in the hack is fun, so I hope you understand why I am persistently trying to get you to change the level; I just don't think it's fun. But maybe it's just me. Systemkrash liked it, and I respect that, so you can submit it.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Fireyblaze » 13 Aug 2012, 05:39

Gonna put my level up for clearing. I really don't have much to say about it.

I tried to tone down the puzzle parts somewhat in exchange for a more simple level feeling. I also took out the ASM I originally had made to make it so my dragon coins didn't save on death because that was only needed for the puzzle parts.

Anyway, try to enjoy.
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Frozelar » 13 Aug 2012, 12:34

SUDDENLY, ME AGAIN
anyways

fireyblaze wrote:Gonna put my level up for clearing. I really don't have much to say about it.

I tried to tone down the puzzle parts somewhat in exchange for a more simple level feeling. I also took out the ASM I originally had made to make it so my dragon coins didn't save on death because that was only needed for the puzzle parts.

Anyway, try to enjoy.

I thought that your level was pretty difficult, but very nice and atmospheric. It felt pretty complex, but not super overwhelmingly complex. The only complaint I really have is that the slowdown killed me at a few places. Also, if you really want to get very detailed... the graphic of the tofublock (the bouncy noteblock) changes when you bounce on it.

Great job, fieryblaze!
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby tenta » 18 Aug 2012, 21:44

I replaced Cement block with side bouncing blocks except for the ones near the midpoint. ive put another blocks instead and i also made the tricky jumps part way easier.

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Re: Level Clearing

Postby limepie20 » 18 Aug 2012, 23:36

fireyblaze:
frostyfish mentioned the tofu block changing colors. Can you try to fix that? Also, can you try setting your level to other sprite memory settings to make there be less slowdown? The slowdown is a bit of a problem, so we should try to get that fixed.
Anyway, I remember last time I played this level, I didn't like it too much. I don't remember exactly why, but whatever it was, you fixed it. I had some good fun this time around. Good job! You are cleared. Just try to get the minor palette and slowdown errors fixed. Thanks.

tenta:
One minor error I just picked up on is that the place where you fall to get a parrot coin (next to midpoint entrance) has regular invisible coin blocks instead of the outlined ones. Also, please remove the line of turn blocks at the top of the level; they look weird.
Before I clear you, can you explain how you are supposed to get the treasure chest because I can't figure it out? I think you should change it a bit because I see the solution involves going inside of the dirt, and that doesn't look good. Could you change it up so you don't have to go inside the dirt?
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Re: Level Clearing

Postby Franky » 19 Aug 2012, 01:04

I told you some things should probably be changed tenta. Though I can respect wanting to keep things how you want them. 50/50 on it, though I think you could make your level much better with a few changes and additions.

Even my inserted level could be improved. By the way, would that be possible Lime? I'd love to improve my already inserted level if it's not a pain for you guys.
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