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Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comments

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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby limepie20 » 22 Jul 2012, 04:31

I think we are planning on using Wyatt's port.

So, all the ideas you have for the level are very good! All the components seem to be constructed. The level should be redesigned, though. What the level is missing is difficulty and challenge. You have created a nice range of sprites to work with; you just need to design the room to be fun and challenging.
I also feel it should be shorter than that. I think it should feel more like a boss platfprming section and not a third part of the level.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby raocow » 22 Jul 2012, 04:37

Honestly I dig the forground, everyone would need a pretty 'simple' forground of that type to make it as unobstrusive as possible.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby Cup » 22 Jul 2012, 04:46

Did you already play it or is that from the video? Cause I gotta say, that's very hard for me! haha I mean yeah, I can make it a lot harder if you'd like me too, but it took me quite a few tries to get that recorded in one take. Probably 15+ lives. It's easily as hard as my ninja level. I do some pretty specific stuff to make emeies line up like that, and with a whole new mapping, you have to remember people will be rather unsure of what everything does. So if I bump it up too much, there will be a lot of cheap deaths while people figure out what acts like what.

If you haven't played it, I suggest it though! The gameplay is actually something I consider to be one of the stronger points at the moment. But it comes at the loss of not having much on screen. Some more specific suggestions might get me more in tune with your vision, because I have a hard time seeing what you suggest.

(and as much as I love Super Marisa World, and Wyatt's port, it's very hard to make it go with this kind of boss! So I'm a bit worried!)
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 22 Jul 2012, 04:55

Pheonix wrote:Putting this here, if only because I haven't got any comments on this iteration and I really want this thing to be done and done.


Is there anyway you can add rotodiscs or firebars? It seems like they would be at home in the level.

I kept thinking many things were hard because of the low ceiling when there where no difficulty otherwise. Try to think of more creatively designed obstacles.

EDIT PREBOSS ROOM
Spoiler: show
A cabinet doesn't seem like something you should spin jump off of, even if it make sense to us hackers.
Last edited by Septentrion Pleiades on 22 Jul 2012, 18:37, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby Jesuiscontent » 22 Jul 2012, 12:17

@Pheonix

First of all I want to let you know that what you (probably) expect for the winged blocks parts is not really intuitive. I died a LOT of times at this place (see spoilered pic below) because I wasn't sure if the timing of the blocks was screwed up or if I was supposed to do something else to get through.
Spoiler: show


I eventually figured that you had to jump here so that you land back on the 2nd winged blocks but it wasn't obvious at all (to me at least).
The rest of the level (aside from the winged blocks parts) was fine to me, challenging but doable, so good job on that. As Sept said though, you might want to add some more variety in the obstacles.

Also I think getting hurt because of this (see pic) is wrong/misleading, so I suggest you delete one column of tiles of either the layer 2 spikes or either the layer 1 wall.
Spoiler: show


@Cup

You know, I think a big part of a traditional boss fight is that you are never safe and you always have to do something if you want to survive. To me your level would feel more boss-like if there were less safe spots and Mishi attacked you with more stuff like bullet bills (NOT a generator though) at places where you currently don't have to do anything.

About the difficulty, well.. I basically one-shot the level without ever getting hit (okay I watched the video before but still), so I agree with limepie, you should make it a bit harder. Your ninja level and your MaGL level were a lot harder to me, for instance.

The sprite issues you're talking about are almost definitely due to byuoancy (sp?). You don't need it in this level (I think) so turn it off.

Also I really like the graphics. Just putting that out there!
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby swirlybomb » 22 Jul 2012, 16:01

I can't really provide in-depth critique like others, but that Mishi thing is pretty kickin' rad.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby Cup » 22 Jul 2012, 17:16

Sprite boyancy is a good suggestion, but unfortunately, that's not the solution! That was just me playing with stuff and trying to break things. When I run into something that doesn't work and I don't know why, I normally just throw the room at it until something breaks and that helps me identify what is causing the problem. I turned that one a few tests ago, and it caused no improvement or detriment so the nature of the problem lays elsewhere. This does mean I might be able to add some podoboo's though! which has been on my mind for a while.

Bullet bills have been on my mind for a while as well, and were in the original plans, but for almost every sprite I placed in that level, I had to battle sprite limit problems. I may just be me needing to research what causes such problem and how the slots get filled. If so bullet bills are something I'd like to add.

And just an idea clarification here, I think where we're not mesh vision wise, is I was actually thinking "boss levels" sort of things! Literally! Something that was boss fight in name, but played like a level, because it's different and while not totally original, it leans towards slightly unique. I feel that making the level you two would want would start reaching into the sprite spammy difficulty of S Mario's sprite spammy levels. While I love S Mario, it's not the kind of game I can play without save states. I'm not disagreeing however! The level I had in my mind was slightly more difficult that this, but sprite limits forced me to rethink some things.

So far I've gotten 4 people's feedback on the level design, two have said they want it more difficult, and two have said they found it pretty fun as is (for what it's worth, those two played without seeing the video). I'm still working on sprite limits, so a newer version will almost certainty be a bit harder, but if you want to offer a few specific suggestions as well, like JeSuis did limepie, I can test those out as well.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby limepie20 » 22 Jul 2012, 18:34

Well as you suggested, I had actually only watched the video because didn't have time for the level. I will play it as soon as I can and provide more specific suggestions.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby Lv27MarkerMMan » 22 Jul 2012, 23:58

@ Cup
I played your boss room. The only thing I have to say about it is that some people (like myself) may think the pit before the wall at the end is the way you're supposed to go before they think to spin jump to an area that they cannot see. Even in games where most pits are death, a pit at the end of the road is often the way forward. Here it is just death. I'm not saying whether or not it is good or bad, but that some people may be deceived to death here (only once of course).
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby limepie20 » 23 Jul 2012, 00:45

Cup:
I still honestly felt that the level was rather easy.
Cup wrote:And just an idea clarification here, I think where we're not mesh vision wise, is I was actually thinking "boss levels" sort of things! Literally! Something that was boss fight in name, but played like a level, because it's different and while not totally original, it leans towards slightly unique. I feel that making the level you two would want would start reaching into the sprite spammy difficulty of S Mario's sprite spammy levels. While I love S Mario, it's not the kind of game I can play without save states. I'm not disagreeing however! The level I had in my mind was slightly more difficult that this, but sprite limits forced me to rethink some things.

See, now I really like this idea and think it is a good one. I just imagined a more sprite-spammy version that was shorter to compensate. But I agree that sprite-spammy can be a bad thing, and I am not necessarily asking for sprite spam, but I do believe there needs to be more sprites than what there is now.

I don't have specific suggestions for the level because the level is pretty consistent throughout and works well for its style. Although this is true, I feel that the level's style as a whole needs some reworking.

Currently every screen has about 1-2 sprites. There are a few places where you can find three sprites. This way, you are usually only dealing with one enemy at a time or sometimes two. Everyone is very familiar with the smw sprites, so this kind of gameplay is the same. If you crank up the sprite density like maybe 3-4 per screen, you can create new and original sprite combinations, which may fill the gap that you feel your level has.

When gameplay feels a bit boring, my primary suggestion is usually to have more than one enemy function as an obstacle at a time because everyone knows how to jump over a koopa, but a koopa accompanied by a boo or something can be different.

I hope you know what I mean when I am saying this. When I say the level was easy, it is because I am used to what the level has to offer. I felt the most creative part was right at the end when you had to use the always-moving boo to get to the thwomp and jump up. But even then, imagine the difference if there was some other enemy you had to navigate around before you could get to the thwomp. It completely spices up the gameplay and creates something more original than before.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby Cup » 23 Jul 2012, 07:09

Wait, the thwomp spawned for you? Can you do me a favor and try loading those last few screens up with sprites and seeing how many spawn? What emulator are you playing on? As I said earlier, my initial idea for the level had quite a bit more sprite interaction than it does now, but due to sprite limit problems I had to cut back.

My original idea for that boo climbing part was something more like this
Image[Image]
But I obviously never got it to work.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby limepie20 » 23 Jul 2012, 12:16

I just had the highest thwomp and the boo, and I am using zsnes.

What is causing the sprite limitations?
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby alex2 » 23 Jul 2012, 12:27

Thwomps take up more tile memory than most other sprites. You need to change the sprite header to something else.

That being said, I still vote not to even have that offscreen ledge.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby Fireyblaze » 28 Jul 2012, 00:35

Putting up one more version of my level before I go to clearing. I made it less puzzle based, but I need to add more uses for the gimmick. Also, I think that I need to lower the time limit a little.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 28 Jul 2012, 03:55

@fiery

The only thing I don't get is why the muncher saws are blue. Can't complain about anything else.


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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby Jesuiscontent » 28 Jul 2012, 15:45

@fireyblaze

Spoiler: show
I like this version of your level, the last few screens and the way to the chest in particular are really well done and use the slowing gimmick pretty well, good job on that. Still a few things I noticed :

Sans titre.jpg


For some reason this podoboo stops jumping out of the lava after one hop, unless you leave the screen and come back. I.. really don't know why it's doing that.

Sans titree.jpg


If the player goes above the level to the right (instead of going left to the chest), he'll not only find out there's nothing over here but will also be slowed down to oblivion and will probably hit the time limit. You should block this path. Speaking of the time limit, during my run where I collected all the parrot coins and the chest I had like 40 seconds left. I'm saying that because you mentioned lowering it ; to me it's just right as of now if you want to get everything, and plenty enough if you just go for the exit.

Sans titreee.png


Now this is arguable, but considering a lot of the obstacles in this level are susceptible to fireballs and it really makes quite a difference if you have a flower or not, I suggest removing one of the two powerups I circled, especially since they are pretty close together.


Once you have considered these "issues", I think your level will be fine for clearing.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby shdwdrgnix » 31 Jul 2012, 23:18

I've got the next 5 days completely free, so expect everything in my level to be finished and tested within those 5 days.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby shdwdrgnix » 11 Aug 2012, 19:16

Now I still have more things I want to test on the Lunatic area, since I changed a lot of things recently.

But I have a version that has everything that was mentionned being fixed with several areas that are changed quite a bit.


Havent imported the lunatic sublevel yet so its innacessible.

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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 11 Aug 2012, 23:27

shdwdrgnix wrote:Now I still have more things I want to test on the Lunatic area, since I changed a lot of things recently.

But I have a version that has everything that was mentionned being fixed with several areas that are changed quite a bit.


Havent imported the lunatic sublevel yet so its innacessible.

Yatagarasu


Easier fixes:

-There are dark blocks that are hard to see which like odd. One of the four 8x8 tile areas are invisible
Spoiler: show
threequarters.png
Easy map16 fix
threequarters.png (4.43 KiB) Viewed 712 times


-Easy mode seems more lazy than a joke. May I suggest the Skull Raft Ride of Shame

-Color code the difficulty of the pipes.

Harder things:

-Dry bones and floating(why?) sparkies are inconsequential for the most part. Rethink enemy options

-Flight area is too hard. Can't see how it would be fun even if I could pass it. Reset door is kind of a punishment for getting those lives.

-How are midpoints suppose to work? Hard midpoint brought me to easy.

-Lava actually has nothing to do with nuclear fusion. Seeing a sun like harasser(like phanto, lakitu with sun graphics) at some point in hard/lunatic would fit in well. Or you could just make Sun related normal enemies(like the mace).


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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby shdwdrgnix » 12 Aug 2012, 04:44

Septentrion Pleiades wrote:
Easier fixes:

-There are dark blocks that are hard to see which like odd. One of the four 8x8 tile areas are invisible

Will fix that

-Easy mode seems more lazy than a joke. May I suggest the Skull Raft Ride of Shame

Its the secret exit, if I make something too easy, it would end up in an early world but wont work too well since the other difficulties are much more harder.

-Color code the difficulty of the pipes.

That is quite hard to fix because the palette messes up for the pipes on almost every subscreen.
I could however use koopa shells to color code them


Harder things:

-Dry bones and floating(why?) sparkies are inconsequential for the most part. Rethink enemy options

Not too sure what else I could place instead

-Flight area is too hard. Can't see how it would be fun even if I could pass it. Reset door is kind of a punishment for getting those lives.

I' ll make it more suited for practicing since lunatic uses some flight tricks.

-How are midpoints suppose to work? Hard midpoint brought me to easy.

They work with the multiple midway patch I'm unable to do that sadly

-Lava actually has nothing to do with nuclear fusion. Seeing a sun like harasser(like phanto, lakitu with sun graphics) at some point in hard/lunatic would fit in well. Or you could just make Sun related normal enemies(like the mace).

I could if someone is willing to redraw the graphics afterwards.
Nuclear fusion is only for lunatic anyways.


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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby Septentrion Pleiades » 12 Aug 2012, 05:25

shdwdrgnix wrote:
Septentrion Pleiades wrote:
Easier fixes:
-Easy mode seems more lazy than a joke. May I suggest the Skull Raft Ride of Shame

Its the secret exit, if I make something too easy, it would end up in an early world but wont work too well since the other difficulties are much more harder.

I mean that the easy room had no content whatsoever. The skull ride with no danger would get the EASY MODO across better.


-Color code the difficulty of the pipes.

That is quite hard to fix because the palette messes up for the pipes on almost every subscreen.
I could however use koopa shells to color code them


Looks like a job for map16. Pipes like that may already exist in the rom, but I'm not sure.

Harder things:

-Dry bones and floating(why?) sparkies are inconsequential for the most part. Rethink enemy options

Not too sure what else I could place instead

It's not like you have to ask permission to use different enemies. You could even splice enemy sets

-Lava actually has nothing to do with nuclear fusion. Seeing a sun like harasser(like phanto, lakitu with sun graphics) at some point in hard/lunatic would fit in well. Or you could just make Sun related normal enemies(like the mace).

I could if someone is willing to redraw the graphics afterwards.
Nuclear fusion is only for lunatic anyways.


Maces are the most prominent enemy and could like be made into glowing yellow/white spheres.



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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby alex2 » 12 Aug 2012, 05:38

Nesting replies like that is fucking confusing. Avoid doing that.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby Ometeotl » 12 Aug 2012, 18:44

alex2 wrote:Nesting replies like that is fucking confusing. Avoid doing that.

Nah.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby shdwdrgnix » 18 Aug 2012, 21:22

Applied the previous fixes to my level so now I will put more work into the last part of lunatic.
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Re: Testing and Development: Deadline-one week after comment

Postby swirlybomb » 27 Aug 2012, 15:19

Based on a suggestion from the Checklist thread, I put in 'a cryptic, meaningless poem' for the first room's text. I just used what Limepie/Raocow had already written, because I'm not so good with The Writing. Just tossing this up here to see if the text and text placement 'works'.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14760273/Talkha ... ntroV2.ips
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