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A2MT Discussion: OW, Bosses, and Gimmicks

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raocow
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by raocow »

Okay, I didn't really look at the op there, but I want a place where peeps would hear me out.

It's about the overworld, and how it relates to a collab hack.

As y'all know, making a difficulty curve is pretty hard to do in the context of a collab hack, since everyone has different standards and whatnot. So I think that the ultimate solution would be to make a truly unlinear hack, with individual LEVELS that are required to be harder.

Like, for example, let's assume the typical 9 world set-up of a mario game.


You have the first world, that will also be the last world. You have like a bunch of red levels, but a section is divided off. Think a bit like Vip3 in a way - for most of the game, you'll be seeking to reach the 'second half of world 1', which would be basically the last world. The way you do this is traveling through the maps and worlds, with a series of dividing pathes and whatnot. They key is of course to find the 8 towers, for different reasons.

4 of the 8 towers would directly lead to the switch palaces. And in this context, the switch palaces could be 'legit' levels, as they kind of serve as level ends.

The other 4 towers would lead to what are basically 'switch gate palaces' - Think of that island in SMI2: four levels that absolutely require one of the switch palaces to move on (side exit enabled to go away, of course), leading to a pretty tough level. Completing this level would open up part of the path towards 'world 1 b', and completing all four would enable you to access the end of the game.

I've had this idea for an overworld for quite a while now, but I just don't have the expertise to pull it off the way I imagine it. I figure another way to see it brought to life would be through this project!
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kilon
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by kilon »

Well, I do like to see this get even more unique. So partially step away from the Super Mario Thing. But not to much, since it still has that name.

For the overworld, I don't know the possibilities, but some way of completely changing the land without reserving a separate sub-OW for it would be nice.

I'm also thinking about trying some other approach for a story but I haven't really thought about anything yet.

One important thing to note is that this has to be organized in a far better way, simply because the days of "lets make a random hack just for raocow" are over.

But I'm sure this won't start for quite some while seeing how there aren't that many guys left that are willing to invest tons of time in this for the next months. best to wait at least until after SMWCP is done.

If I got some more ideas, I'll post them. Should this thread be no raocow allowed or just use spoilers for ideas that are more specific?
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Chdata »

Spoilers I'd say. OP updated with a spoiler.
(I think we only need to spoil major things like story ideas or things that have to do with ASMT 1 stuff. Something like a graphical suggestion I posted probably doesn't need spoilers.)
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Alex-R »

One of the things we really need is better communication. Both between "ordinary" members but also between members and the project leader(s).

No offense to YCZ or anything, but there were times he was gone for a few weeks and missed a lot of things that was going on. I know this was mostly because of "IRL" stuff and managing something like this takes up a lot of your free time, but it still shouldn't happen.

What I mean is that I don't think having only one project leader is a realistic idea, because "IRL" stuff WILL happen. (in a way, some people actually kind of became de facto project leaders as time went by)

And like (I think it was) Kil suggested in the "things we could have done better" thread, a better platform to make it easier to see who uses what.

Also, while we're talking about the OW and things like that, I agree that we should make some sort of "VIP 3" styled OW. Difficulty WILL vary in a collab, and instead of trying to hide it, embrace it. We're not really aiming for "the closest thing to a sequel to SMW" now are we?

Overall we need a lot more planning before we actually create things. In this first one, things just kind of started and this planning thing kind of happened when progress on levels and other stuff came to a halt.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by rubberfishy »

I agree that the overworlds need to be handled differently from last time.

last time the overworlds where all created first and people where told how many spots there where in each and people where told what theme to use and what difficulty to make. I think this is all wrong.

I feel the overworld should be made last, people should make whatever levels why want, no theme or difficulty in mind, just be as random as they want.

then the levels should be ordered in order by difficulty or ordered by how interesting the gimmicks/ level design is and then the overworld can be made last.

we could even think outside the box and split the game into two or three different hacks depending on the number of levels.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by kilon »

That could make creating a story a very interesting challenge though. Globally it wouldn't really affect it though, so I'm sure we can work around that.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Terry von Feleday »

Whoa there Charlie, isn't it a bit early to talk about ASMT 2 before the first one's even publically released?

Well, I guess there's nothing technically speaking against it, but the idea still strikes me as odd.

I think the very first question we should ask is a technical one: Will you guys use LM 1.65 or 1.70? I mean, the latter would be a fairly obvious choice, but as far as I understood it still has bugs and issues, and I think peeps will have enough bugs and issues as it is, this being a collab hack, to bother with additional ones born from version inconsistencies.

Story and Overworld: I don't know how ASMT ends, but I'm just going to assume that Demo is back IN SPAAAACE at its end. If so, we could justify overworld inconsistencies by making the entire thing take place on a space station that is made of multiple "stations" containing different biomes, with many many labyrinthine walkways running back and forth between them like a web so you can have a level in the "grass" biome that, if you beat it, leads you through a tube into the "ice" biome to have a level there that once you beat it leads you back to another level in the grassy land. I'm not sure how easy it'd be to pull off, but if it's not too hard, it'd nicely justify any thematic inconsistencies that happen when you sort the levels by difficulty.
I hope it isn't too difficult to picture, but I'll try making a graphical representation of what I mean.

What we could also do would be make the story "multilinear" in a simple sense. That would mean having multiple simple plot threads, each with its own levels, just a basic selection between stuff like "chase the charlies who have stolen your stuff", "examine the spatial anomaly in block 45-B" and "DAR BE A TOEHOE IT MUST BE DEADENED". I'd come up with something more specific(im a ritur!) but as I said, I have no idea what the last bits of plot in ASMT are all about so yeah.

Also, requesting to call it "And Another Super Mario Thing", or AASMT for short. And as we work our way up the sequel ladder, we'll keep adding words that start with A. =D
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Kil »

I quit smw so I'll just copy my suggestion from before.
One thing that might be useful next time ya'll try this, is an idea from the VIP series.

http://vip.rgr.jp/sm4wiki/?%E6%94%B9%E9 ... %E7%99%BA5

At the bottom you will find a (badly formatted) wiki table containing what map16, sprite number, exgfx number, etc, the corresponding level is using. Updating one of these would probably be a lot easier than using text files on the coordinator's computer, and constantly bugging him with questions about what has been taken and not taken. If everyone updates their own level in the table with what they're using, anyone can quickly check to see what slots are open for insertion. There should be almost no work needed from the coordinator in organizing map16 and all of that then.
Say you wanted to use map16 0xDFF for a custom block of yours. Simply go to the wiki and check if anyone is using 0xDFF, and if not, mark it down for your level and use it. Then when someone else comes along and wants to use 0xDFF, they'll see youre already using it and pick a different map16. This can be applied to music numbers, exgfx number, sprites, and all of that stuff. If you did something like this, there would be almost no load put on the project organizer at all, and then he could put more effort into playing touhou 12.5 all day.

Here's an example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kilgamesh/LevelTable
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by RealLink »

A2MT? A Second Mario Thing?

I like the idea of one "operation station" from where you can travel to any world you want to. And at the end of that world there is the switch or something else. When you finished all the worlds you can go to the final world.

Regarding LM 1.7, there are no real bugs in the program itself (as far as I know), just incompatibilities with patches. And until we actually start this the minor bugs that may come up should be fixed as well.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by rubberfishy »

ASMT2 doesn't have to follow on from ASMT's plot, it could be something completely new.

If you're desperate to make it fit in cannon somehow just take the The Legend of Zelda route and say it's a new Demo.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Terry von Feleday »

I'd just like to note that I am fundamentally opposed to any idea involving multiple demos. Please let us not turn ASMT into a continuity nightmare two games in, shall we?

Also, here's an example of what I meant with some SPAYZ STASHUN overworld design. Only less rushed and crappy, I suppose.
[attachment=0]overworldexample.PNG[/attachment]
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by kilon »

Not to spoil anything, but the plot of ASMT1 ends with a lot of options so don't feel to restricted. And besides, it could even be that this takes place 10 years after ASMT1 and all of it is just a vague memory. That could even make it take place in Mushroom Kingdom again.

But honestly, I don't really feel like thinking about it just yet. I am following the ideas and may comment on them as usual, but I should, for my own safety (busy), just look from the sideline for a while.

I do have plans to start learning using LM somewhere around the summer holidays, but I'm not guaranteeing anything.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by rubberfishy »

Terry von Feleday wrote:I'd just like to note that I am fundamentally opposed to any idea involving multiple demos. Please let us not turn ASMT into a continuity nightmare two games in, shall we?
I think there already multiple Demos tho...
I mean I'm pretty sure that the What The Hell Demo is different from the ASMT Demo, I'm pretty sure she's not a alien in raocows game, right?
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Argumentable »

She's a demon
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Terry von Feleday »

Hey, it's not like she can't be a demon and an alien.

And also a ninja and a rocket scientist.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by SeaThief »

Terry von Feleday wrote:I'd just like to note that I am fundamentally opposed to any idea involving multiple demos. Please let us not turn ASMT into a continuity nightmare two games in, shall we?

Also, here's an example of what I meant with some SPAYZ STASHUN overworld design. Only less rushed and crappy, I suppose.
[attachment=0]overworldexample.PNG[/attachment]
I was going to suggest that the different worlds be seperate worlds (ie planets) with the space theme to link them, but I really like the way this mockup looks.

One thing that's important to remember is not to let the plot get too serious with the space theme. This is still SMW, not Metroid Fusion.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Crimson »

Terry von Feleday wrote:Hey, it's not like she can't be a demon and an alien.

And also a ninja and a rocket scientist.
So in all, she's a 'thing'.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by flameofdoubt »

I'd just like to field support for Terry's space station idea, (partly since as I loved metroid fusion and am a fan of space stuffs) and raocow's OW idea too, it would solve a lot of level difficult issues, plus it's a neat idea, and it can fit completely with the end of ASMT's plot.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Argumentable »

Put a bunch of split paths on the overworld and have all levels ranked by difficulty and then put that ranking somewhere in the name. Then if you wanna do all the easy levels first you can do that, or if you wanna do all of a world you can, but you'll know what you're getting into before you start
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by randoguy101 »

Because everyone's been complaining about it, we could have a 'plot' version with mandatory cutscenes and message boxes containing plot development, and a 'no-plot' version with easily skippable cutscenes and message boxes with plot. This way, if people want a story, they can have it, if they don't, they can not have it.

Or just make the cutscenes skippable in the first place
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Chdata »

Story idea
Demo returns to the space ship, finds the master is missing, travels around the space ship, the ship's suddenly attacked, gets out of control into a wormhole (so she's teleported again!), appears on a planet with the broken ship behind her, and someone's house just happened to get destroyed by the crash. (And that person would be the main villain guy.)
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by rubberfishy »

This is my story idea:
Demo wears a trilby hat and is in a detective/archaeologist duo type thing with a Bat

Demo's all like:
"hand over the golden idol, that belongs in a museum" to some guy.
and the Bat then interrupts, and is like:
"not so fast Demo, I'm totally taking this"
then Demo's like:
"darn!, somehow I always knew you would betray me one day. All bats are horrible without exception"

then the last boss is the Bat or has a Bat generator or something.

THE END
awesome, no?

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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Chdata »

I dunno about basing a story off of it but I think it'd be a hilarious level.
That reminds me, was Argu's "metroid bat" thing in ASMT? I was going to make one that kills mario if his coins are at zero and one that's compatible with the air meter.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Argumentable »

Nope. I still have the level, though, in its uncompleted form
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Moniker »

+1 to hub world & space station.

Re: Story - maybe we should make a thread? eh.
I think it would be pretty funny to diffuse the cliffhanger thusly:

??: WE ARE ALIVE!
Demo: Master!!
??: Yes! We all survived the devastating attack from that enemy fleet despite your absence. Took some damage, though. You certainly have some cleaning to do! And kindly throw those disgusting vegetables out the nearest airlock.

Demo then proceeds to "clean" the ship, meaning killing off the aliens or whatever from the enemy fleet that made it aboard the space station. This would be a nice "lite" story, with the only problem that you'd either have to resprite things, or somehow explain how they came from the MK. You hit text boxes which are updates from the command hub with things like "an attack in sector g!" &c.

If we want to go a little more story-intensive, there's an idea I've been kicking around. For his hack "A Strange Mission," Whiteyoshiegg made a patch that lets you play as yoshi (and only yoshi). What if the first few levels or even world were the player as Con finding a portal to Demo's space station and trying to save her? (From the enemy fleet, or corrupted master, or whatever).

It would have the dangerously nerdy-awesome potential title of ASMT2: The Wrath of Con.
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