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A2MT Discussion: OW, Bosses, and Gimmicks

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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Chdata »

Haha I like that idea Moniker.

with the only problem that you'd either have to resprite things, or somehow explain how they came from the MK.

We could say that because of the void, some enemies from there have been transported throughout the universe, but it'd also be funny to throw in random resprites maybe even from different gfx styles like one HQ enemy next to some monochrome enemy and some that have nothing to do with ASMT's resprites.

If we want to go a little more story-intensive, there's an idea I've been kicking around. For his hack "A Strange Mission," Whiteyoshiegg made a patch that lets you play as yoshi (and only yoshi). What if the first few levels or even world were the player as Con finding a portal to Demo's space station and trying to save her? (From the enemy fleet, or corrupted master, or whatever).

I think it'd be better if we just use a levelASM code instead of the patch, since it's really easy to make and much simpler than his patch. Otherwise I agree with this idea.

It would have the dangerously nerdy-awesome potential title of ASMT2: The Wrath of Con.

What exactly do you mean by Wrath of Con? He goes on a rampage and starts killing Demo's comrades on the ship too? (Until he find's Demo)
How about this: When Con finds Demo, they talk a little bit and then suddenly the master is hungry again... for Yoshi meat (since he decided he doesn't like vegetables anymore). Demo doesn't want Con to be eaten, and has to help him escape the ship, probably even becoming a renegade and having to escape too
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Moniker »

Also - and this is just an idea - don't wanna go too crazy - aw damn it's so radical --- we should have raocow as a regular collaborator, assuming he so-desires. Meaning: no more spoiler shenanigans, &c. No one's gonna be as committed to talkhaus as raocow, so it just makes sense to have him involved.. as "a" leader (probably not "the" leader since I've gathered from what he's said that he doesn't know much re: asm). He also would seem likely to cut the crap and just decide some stuff when necessary, although I'll be doing some of that too now that I've been around long enough to have a little authority. 8-)
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by raocow »

Moniker wrote:Also - and this is just an idea - don't wanna go too crazy - aw damn it's so radical --- we should have raocow as a regular collaborator, assuming he so-desires. Meaning: no more spoiler shenanigans, &c. No one's gonna be as committed to talkhaus as raocow, so it just makes sense to have him involved.. as "a" leader (probably not "the" leader since I've gathered from what he's said that he doesn't know much re: asm). He also would seem likely to cut the crap and just decide some stuff when necessary, although I'll be doing some of that too now that I've been around long enough to have a little authority. 8-)
Actually... yes.

Like, make it like this thread: spoiler the meaty bits (you'll save space this way anyway) but I'd like to have some sort of manager ability in order to enforce deadlines (and being up to date, I can give info to people more easily via video)
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Tails_155 »

raocow wrote:Actually... yes.

Like, make it like this thread: spoiler the meaty bits (you'll save space this way anyway) but I'd like to have some sort of manager ability in order to enforce deadlines (and being up to date, I can give info to people more easily via video)

Good idea Moniker. Hack Dictator, if you will. Besides... it'll be more fun that way, because raocow might expect SOME things... and then be totally blown away! It's all in good fun! :D

I've had an idea for a while, but I don't know how ASM Heavy it'd be, probably a lot.
How hard would it be to make 8 switch palaces with both on-switch and off-switch blocks. It could really add to the things one could do, making all castles required to make it to the ending, etc. I know already there would be palette issues as well as it being a coding issue, so I throw it out there now so it can get shot down early, or considered if it actually makes any sense.

OR

Similar idea, but where the switch palaces can be turned off and on, and various areas are accessible depending... the only problem off the top of my head with this idea is the tedium of redoing the switch palaces for it.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by randoguy101 »

Tails_155 wrote:
How hard would it be to make 8 switch palaces with both on-switch and off-switch blocks. It could really add to the things one could do, making all castles required to make it to the ending, etc. I know already there would be palette issues as well as it being a coding issue, so I throw it out there now so it can get shot down early, or considered if it actually makes any sense.
That would be quite possible, though
it would take alot of Xkas, custom blocks, and patience. I'll offer to do it I guess, given I figure out how to make custom switches, as they are extended objects. Honestly, all I'd need is to know what area the switches' code is stored, and an ObjecTool tutorial if possible.

EDIT: I'd also need 4 bytes of FreeRAM
EDIT2: Actually, it'd have to be SRAM so the switches would stay pressed.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Chdata »

Respond to Rando:
This thread isn't for working on stuff yet! Don't waste your time until we actually start a second collab.

Respond to tails:
How hard would it be to make 8 switch palaces with both on-switch and off-switch blocks. It could really add to the things one could do, making all castles required to make it to the ending, etc. I know already there would be palette issues as well as it being a coding issue, so I throw it out there now so it can get shot down early, or considered if it actually makes any sense.

The coding would actually be really easy, I made a patch that changes switch palaces so I know how they work, and I also know how to use objectool.

Similar idea, but where the switch palaces can be turned off and on, and various areas are accessible depending... the only problem off the top of my head with this idea is the tedium of redoing the switch palaces for it.

Well, Roy made a patch that does just that (but you don't get extra switch palaces)
for the SMWC race speedrun timebomb thing. I bet I can get him to release it.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Tails_155 »

chdata wrote:
The coding would actually be really easy, I made a patch that changes switch palaces so I know how they work, and I also know how to use objectool.

Prime. That'd be so awesome! It'd throw him off a lot XP "You can't do that!" Etc. Issues are still stwich palaces on the OW's colors, as well as having enough palettes without some shenanigans.

Similar idea, but where the switch palaces can be turned off and on, and various areas are accessible depending... the only problem off the top of my head with this idea is the tedium of redoing the switch palaces for it.

Well, Roy made a patch that does just that (but you don't get extra switch palaces)
for the SMWC race speedrun timebomb thing. I bet I can get him to release it.

Again, fantastic! :D But still the other issue I mentioned may be an issue. One thing could be the "Alternate Path" like thing TKO does with the "collapsed Castle" and having an alternate palace to turn blocks on/off.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Chdata »

Tails_155 wrote:
chdata wrote:
The coding would actually be really easy, I made a patch that changes switch palaces so I know how they work, and I also know how to use objectool.

Prime. That'd be so awesome! It'd throw him off a lot XP "You can't do that!" Etc. Issues are still stwich palaces on the OW's colors, as well as having enough palettes without some shenanigans.

Similar idea, but where the switch palaces can be turned off and on, and various areas are accessible depending... the only problem off the top of my head with this idea is the tedium of redoing the switch palaces for it.

Perhaps we just use something like a normal level tile with something around it indicating switch palace. Like putting it in a carnival tent.

Well, Roy made a patch that does just that (but you don't get extra switch palaces)
for the SMWC race speedrun timebomb thing. I bet I can get him to release it.

Again, fantastic! :D But still the other issue I mentioned may be an issue. One thing could be the "Alternate Path" like thing TKO does with the "collapsed Castle" and having an alternate palace to turn blocks on/off.

Umm well there was an OW sprite that only lets you go on certain paths depending on your player, I could probably make it depend on the palace.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Moniker »

Sorry to interrupt, but can you guys start implementing some form of Quote/Reply annotation? It's getting rather unintelligible. And why is this stuff spoilered? It's just OW stuff that rao among others would probably want to read, since he after all proposed it.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Terry von Feleday »

randoguy101 wrote:Or just make the cutscenes skippable in the first place
Actually, shouldn't it be fairly simple to make a sprite or something that checks when you press start or some other button and instantly teleports you to the beginning of the level rather than continuing the cutscene? Just display a little "press start to skip" text at the beginning of each one. I'm not sure how the cutscenetool ASMT uses works, but I don't think this sort of thing is impossible.

Also, here's an example of how I imagine the general overworld layout based on previous comments:
[attachment=0]moaroverworld.PNG[/attachment]
So it's basically sorted by difficulty, then world theme. Or something like that anyway.

...And it's only now that I notice I probably shouldn'thave used bright pink as the background for that thing. Huh.

Also, I should really think of these things before posting instead of editing them in afterwards, but I think
the playasyoshi patch is best when restricted to one or two gimmick levels rather than a chunk of the hack. Of course, I'm only saying this because I'm planning a level involving said gimmick(hey, I've had that idea even before I knew of that patch!) and I don't want it to seem redundant so...
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Crimson »

That mock-up is pretty awesome, far better than when I tried to come up with a similar design for a hack long ago.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by kilon »

Terry von Feleday wrote: Actually, shouldn't it be fairly simple to make a sprite or something that checks when you press start or some other button and instantly teleports you to the beginning of the level rather than continuing the cutscene? Just display a little "press start to skip" text at the beginning of each one. I'm not sure how the cutscenetool ASMT uses works, but I don't think this sort of thing is impossible.

I know it's possible because I've seen hacks use it.

Story related:
Nothing even global yet, but just some things I might want to try out:

-Interactive story, branching according to the players decisions. This probably won't work in a longer hack seeing how you can only use a couple of levels for that section making the game really short. And I think it's literally impossible anyway.

-Using flashbacks and flash forwards. This would be insanely hard to do seeing how easily you can mess things up, but doing something like Back to the Future would be an interesting challenge at the very least. Not to sure if we can pull it of with lots of different opinions though.

-Using 'layers'. Meaning, there is a big main story, but after some time another story gets added to the mix and so on. They are all completely different from each other, but are in some way connected to each other as well. Which could make for a really nice effect.

-Or just go all 1984 (George Orwell) on it. And not try and make it into a standard Mario hack story, even though that would be hard to do in the first place.

Either way, I would prefer to move away from your standard linear story. Ofcourse, if we use a non-linear OW it has to be non-linear either way. And that in itself might be enough of a challenge already, but I'd love to see that extra touch. Without making the plot dominant over gameplay.


But first I think we have to confirm a setting before we can even start thinking about the plot.
I like the idea of Terry with the hub and a bunch of different planets. But either way, we have to make better use of the main OW.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Terry von Feleday »

With all of that story talk, you shouldn't forget the general TALKHOAZ HAET PLOT attitude the majority of people seem to have here. While I'm not trying to say we should leave out the plot entirely, making a complex/interactive type of thing going on while still keeping cutscenes to a minimum (not to mention SMW's general text box count limit!) is not something I imagine to be easy.

Not to mention we shouldn't forget that this is a collab hack, so not all levels might be compatible with a complex story.

So basically, no flashbacks please. Ever.

So, to sum up, we have a bunch of ideas that we could base a story on right now:

- Grand enemy fleet remains cleanup-o-rama
- Undefined master entity HUNGERS FOR YOSHI FLESH GRRR
- Teleporter-related space/time continuum mishap makes space station go all weird
- some thing I'm sure I missed but OH WELL NOT IMPORTANT

So basically, if we go with the basic overworld layout I posted, rather than the sub-worlds being sorted by difficulty, they could be sorted by plotline. Basically you'd have a choice of "Go to subsector 1A to find the time bomb the enemy set", "Go to subsector 1B to inspect the anomaly that keeps spewing vaguely sausage-shaped tentacle horses(?) into the station" and "find the deviously hidden secret exit in some level to get to subsector 1C which you thought was a shortcut but where you really find clues on the master being not quite what he's supposed to be".

The switch palace concept would require you to visit all locations anyway, but maybe you could make the cutscenes that play in each area depend on which locations you visited before. For instance, subsection 1A has a level where you find a whole bunch of guys from the Mushroom Kingdom (Charlies, Yoshis, etc) and the noted time bomb.

- If you chose to go to 1A first, Master will prompt you to murder their faces since they're defending the time bomb. This is basically the "lite-plot" path.
- If you were to 1B before, one of the yoshis notes that they were sent here by the vortex and thus have no business with any time bombs, and that the time bomb is actually a special vortex bomb the kind of which was actually responsible for the anomaly in the first place.
- If you went to 1C first, Con will tell you that they were sent here on the Master's demand, and actually were the ones that set up the bomb so they could use the resulting rip in space-time to flee.

Basically, something like that. I imagine it would be pretty complex to implement, but I think it covers Kilon's ideas moderately well and adds some replay value since you only get the "full" story once you've played the game multiple times.

So, I sure do like starting sentences with "so", don't I. Man I'm really repeating myself a lot today. I blame the weather.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by raocow »

Y'all seem to be talking about the story, so if I may give my two cents:

In a game, the GAME itself should come first, and the story should compliment that, but should not get in the way of the game. In modern games this gets blurred a bit but smw is not a modern game.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Argumentable »

Terry von Feleday wrote:TALKHOAZ HAET PLOT
talkhoes hat bad spluinger mar
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Crimson »

If it's in space, all the Touhou stuff can be replaced with Gradius/R-Type/etc.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by rubberfishy »

hey, my plot idea is just 3 lines of text then BAM!, it's the game, that's it.
naturally I vote for my plot idea.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Terry von Feleday »

raocow wrote:Y'all seem to be talking about the story, so if I may give my two cents:

In a game, the GAME itself should come first, and the story should compliment that, but should not get in the way of the game. In modern games this gets blurred a bit but smw is not a modern game.
The thing is, what can we say about the game at this point? Gameplay is pretty much something that'll be left up to the individual level creators and playtesters, I don't see what we could be talking about in that regard at the moment aside from the whole overworld management.

Even if the story is of secondary priority in a ROMhack (I never understood why, but I guess this is just different values at work) it still generates some kind of general framework that the final game can be built around.

Also, while you probably can't tell not looking at the spoiler tags, we're talking about whether the game should be semi/multilinear and how we could implement such a feature moreso than anything, just under the context of story at the moment.

On another note, I'm completely against any notions of removing the touhou stuff but I'm a horrible fanboy so just ignore this or something
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Argumentable »

I don't play video games to read a story or watch a bunch of cutscenes. I have books and movies for when I wanna do that. If I'm playing a video game I want then that's what I want to do. You suck at making levels but want to make a hack anyway? Think your awesome writing skills will make up for it? Tough shit, it won't. If you try it, it's gonna suck. I can't think of a single video game off the top of my head where the story gave me stronger feelings about it than the actual gameplay and levels, or where the story comes over actually playing it.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Alex-R »

Terry von Feleday wrote:Even if the story is of secondary priority in a ROMhack (I never understood why, but I guess this is just different values at work).
Thing is, nothing shall ever in any way get in the way for gameplay. Ever. Not even things like cutoff. (yes controversial statement right there, but keep in mind that most cases of cutoff could be fixed easily with some ExGFX or something like that later). It's a game, you are supposed to play it. If a level has to take a hit because of some plot related stuff, yeah, that just shouldn't happen. A basic outline like setting and stuff like that, sure, but nothing more than that.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by rubberfishy »

I don't even think the overworld should be decided on now. I don't think level creators should be forced to have a theme or difficulty for there level, they should be able to make what they want.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Moniker »

rubberfishy wrote:I don't even think the overworld should be decided on now.
No decisions whatsoever should happen now. No work should be done. I'm putting a moratorium on decision-making until the public release of ASMT1.

This is just a thread for idea-generation. Then, once the game is out, we'll have lots of fun things to already start deciding and doing. Part of our troubles with ASMT were that we played things too much by ear. This way we'll have a nice, well-rounded bedrock of ideas to build the game on.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Terry von Feleday »

Excuse me, but I seem to be missing the post that says that we should make the story take over the game completely. Could you link to it please?

Sarcasm aside(I should really learn that sarcasm is not a good way to make arguments on the internet), some people like a bit of story, some don't, and I don't see a point in removing it completely just because the latter portion of people exists. It bears repeating: No one has any intention of making it the central point of the hack, and no one is trying to make the player sit through half an hour worth of cutscenes after every level. Once again, Metal Gear, this is not. I just think that a good little plot can make the game a bit more interesting, particularly when it comes to showing it to a slightly wider audience.

Also, this is a collab hack. This doesn't just mean "a hack where everyone makes a level". Some people are good level designers, some are avid programmers, and some happen to be reasonable writers. Everyone's contributing in their own way, and as long as we don't overdo it, where's the problem? I honestly don't understand this "story can only get in the way of gameplay" mindset. If that happens, that's not a sign of story being a bad thing as much as a case of someone doing something horribly wrong. Story for story's sake is bad, yes. But story is supposed to tie the game together, give everything a bit of reason and entertain, not be there as a sort of necessity of modern gaming convention that has to be terrible by default.

I mean, I guess you could just make it a simple linear platformer with just the submitted levels and nothing more, but to be perfectly honest I'm sure there's people who'd find this somewhat less interesting to play. :/

Also, rubberfishy: I'm fairly sure the final overworld will only be made after the levels, and the concept we have at the moment keeps that sort of diversity in mind.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Alex-R »

Terry von Feleday wrote:"story can only get in the way of gameplay" mindset.
This is what the whole argument is about. No one is saying this. What we are saying is that making the story beforehand can get in the way and because of that is a bad idea.

My point is that if we start a complex story about say... uh, how Demo battles her inner demons and finds out that Mario is her long lost father, which makes it really akward because he's the enemy (or something) before any levels are done, gameplay will take a hit. Why? Because with each line written some freedom in some way will be taken away. This isn't exclusive to story, but things like overworld too.
Terry von Feleday wrote:But story is supposed to tie the game together, give everything a bit of reason and entertain
Exactly. The story is supposed to tie levels together. That's exactly why you make the levels first, then write the story to tie them together, not the other way around.
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Re: ASMT 2 Discussion

Post by Argumentable »

Terry von Feleday wrote:Excuse me, but I seem to be missing the post that says that we should make the story take over the game completely. Could you link to it please?
Well
Terry von Feleday wrote: Even if the story is of secondary priority in a ROMhack[/color] (fuck colors not fixing this)
This kind of implies that you believe the story should be the "main" priority!

While I would rather just ignore story aside from giving a reason to go play levels (and not a 10 minute long cutscene to say "some guys stole your shit get it back") I'm not saying you have to give up on it, I'm mostly saying worry about the other parts first.
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