Re: Demote Bwarch Poll [Serious]

[Jesuiscontent]

Wait was this created only because of the japan thread?? That's not a very tyrant-like attitude, Bwarch. Don't do anything if you do believe the warning was deserved (which you apparently doubt, and I'd agree), or remove the warning if you think it was pointless, but don't go and create shitfest threads like this, that'll only annoy everyone involved.

Everyone makes mistakes, dude.

[Bwarch]

It sounds to me like you don't want to do this anymore, but don't want to be left with the feeling of abandoning your position so you push to responsibility on to the populous.

You are wrong.

Maybe if two people replace you, each one focusing on a specific areas of the forum.

It is likely that only one person shall replace me, me and Limepie have a selection of people in mind and we will decide on who if the demote result wins in the voting thread.

Wait was this created only because of the japan thread?? That's not a very tyrant-like attitude, Bwarch. Don't do anything if you do believe the warning was deserved (which you apparently doubt, and I'd agree), or remove the warning if you think it was pointless, but don't go and create shitfest threads like this, that'll only annoy everyone involved.

Everyone makes mistakes, dude.

I have had various times in the past when people have expressed disdain with my decisions. The Japan thread was the kicker for this thread, but not the entire cause.

Also, added a list of moderator actions since my promotion into the OP. Tell me if you all want anything added and I will.

[Septentrion Pleiades]

Wait was this created only because of the japan thread?? That's not a very tyrant-like attitude, Bwarch. Don't do anything if you do believe the warning was deserved (which you apparently doubt, and I'd agree), or remove the warning if you think it was pointless, but don't go and create shitfest threads like this, that'll only annoy everyone involved.

Everyone makes mistakes, dude.

I doubt it's only that.

I think we could use more mods with less workloads. There seems to be a tradition of having two mods from less active times. If we can get a multitude of mods that simply know when to use their power(which is sparsely) then things will go just swimmingly on the talkhaus. Right now mods are more like chiefs when we can support a council.

edit:

It sounds to me like you don't want to do this anymore, but don't want to be left with the feeling of abandoning your position so you push to responsibility on to the populous.

You are wrong.

You could have created a simple feedback thread, but a "Demote me" poll is quite a bit different. It will be ultimately your decision to step down.

[Bwarch]

I could have created a feedback thread, yes, but I didn't want to. I didn't care to.

It will be my decision to step down, yes, but I will hopefully honor the result of this poll.
Actually you know what this being the case I'm making a discussion thread since this will apparently be a thing instead of just votes.

[Jesuiscontent]

Deleting user Daniel Jackson's entire posting history on his request.

This is the only one I really disagree with. The rest is either arguable (SCFC whatever, or InsaneIntensions' warning) or intrinsically good (mafia forum). That does not look like too terrible to me. An important position will always get criticized anyway. I don't think anyone in the talkhaus could do a better job than you, honestly (probably also why you were approached in the first place)

[Bwarch]

Such decisions wherein deleting a person's entire posting history or deleting a person's account from now on will be brought up in Ivory Tower and the mod and admin team shall decide on what to do.

This being the case not after Daniel Jackson, but once it was discovered TLs4 deleted SayAnything upon his request.

I would say no, only because there isn't a person to quickly replace you.

Not true. Me and Limepie have ruminated on who would replace us if ever we had to step down for RL reasons. If the person accepts, the mod promotion can be done in a matter of hours.

[Jesuiscontent]

I think we could use more mods with less workloads. There seems to be a tradition of having two mods from less active times. If we can get a multitude of mods that simply know when to use their power(which is sparsely) then things will go just swimmingly on the talkhaus. Right now mods are more like chiefs when we can support a council.

What the fuck am I reading. Yeah right let's create an entire governement for the talkhaus, and you'll be the buffoon of King raocow. I mean talkhaus is an extremely SMALL forum with extremely little controversy or needs to moderate. It could stand up even with one, hell even no moderator at all.The mods have always seemed more like animators to me here. (I'm not talking about the collab mods of course but most of them are so segregated from the rest of the talkhaus we might as well not include them at all)


fakeedit :

This being the case not after Daniel Jackson, but once it was discovered TLs4 deleted SayAnything upon his request.

Yeah, he also deleted jasssssssssssssssssmin, and now all the threads she was involved in make no sense.

[Septentrion Pleiades]

I will admit that you have made a few weird decisions. I would imagine that at first a lot of advice from the older mods(limepie) would be involved when someone becomes a mod. You have made many changes that people like. I don't think I anyone has been impacted too negative, but I really don't read everything that goes on in talkhaus.

what was SCFC anyways?

What the fuck am I reading. Yeah right let's create an entire governement for the talkhaus, and you'll be the buffoon of King raocow. I mean talkhaus is an extremely SMALL forum with extremely little controversy or needs to moderate. It could stand up even with one, hell even no moderator at all.The mods have always seemed more like animators to me here. (I'm not talking about the collab mods of course but most of them are so segregated from the rest of the talkhaus we might as well not include them at all)

I made a metaphor, so sue me. it has always been two mods even on the brink of forum deadness. We just need people who don't abuse power.

[Bwarch]

I will admit that you have made a few weird decisions. I would imagine that at first a lot of advice from the older mods(limepie) would be involved when someone becomes a mod.

Basically how my becoming a mod happened is that Argu was going to become inactive so Limepie needed a replacement.

In Ivory Tower Limepie said "Hey is Bwarch alright" and raocow was like "Yeah sure."

I do not agree with the line of thinking that haus needs a team of moderators. Two or three at most are more than enough to deal with everything, especially since we no longer have to deal with the new user registration forum.

what was SCFC anyways?

SCSF is this kid who rants about videogames and fandoms, often screaming and yelling in his videos. Ashan saw fit to make a thread on the kid, advertising when he made videos and talking about him, and I saw fit to close it. It was discovered sometime into the thread that somebody had diagnosed Sammy with autism. This played a role in some users distaste of the thread. It did not play a role in my own distaste of the thread. I disliked the thread even before that info came out and SCSF was my very first moderator action iirc.

There is a link to the Encyclopedia Dramatic page in the OP of the poll thread if you want more info on SCSF. I'd link somewhere better than that hellhole but I cannot think of where else somebody has spoken frankly on what SCSF is.

[Septentrion Pleiades]

Basically how my becoming a mod happened is that Argu was going to become inactive so Limepie needed a replacement.

In Ivory Tower Limepie said "Hey is Bwarch alright" and raocow was like "Yeah sure."

I do not agree with the line of thinking that haus needs a team of moderators. Two or three at most are more than enough to deal with everything, especially since we no longer have to deal with the new user registration forum.

Oh yes limepie. He doesn't have so much social presence anymore, and raocow is hardly a leader among man. What was missing what the presence of Argumentable who everyone knew. You essentially have to be the leader for everyone by yourself. I think this is less about numbers and more about filling a function and you're the only one doing that.

This has become quite a diverse community, hasn't it.

[Aposke]

Voting the "Demote Bwarch Poll Discussion" for biggest Drama 2014!
Oh man!

...anyways

Some things that you (Bwarch) do that I'm generally against:

Graveyarding single posts that are not spam or downright insults
To me, this is pretty much opinionated censorship. I've seen you delete posts for as little as being off-topic. If it was really insulting stuff or spam, I could understand this, but if it's just an offhand command or something similar, this is a case of overmoderating IMHO.

Changing the contents of user posts AT ALL without asking or being asked to
This one should be obvious. If we can't even trust our mods to leave our posts untouched on principle, how do we know that what we see is actually the user's original message?

Graveyarding and post-editing in "joke-threads" like this one
Pretty much the last two principles combined.

Taking the "hentai" thing too seriously
While Insane's post was a dumb joke, I see no way how anyone could see this as personally (or otherwise) offending, and urging him to "apologize" for it is really really silly and kind of out of your scope of work as a mod.

Downright deleting posts "to preserve the quality of the thread"
Due to obvious reasons, I have no direct proof for this, so I'd like a word or two on this from Bwarch himself, but if this is true (as I've heard it is), then it's just as bad as changing the contents of posts without being asked to do so.

Overall, I'm voting for Bwarch to step down, because he's easily the most controlling mod we've had in a while and seems to aim to shape the forums more after his views than the community's views.

Edit: Also, disclaimer, yadda yadda: I don't hate Bwarch as a person, he's actually a pretty fun guy to be around, but I disagree with most of his controversial modding decisions (which, YES, doesn't mean he hasn't done a lot of good stuff as a mod, too).

[Bwarch]

Oh yes limepie. He doesn't have so much social presence anymore, and raocow is hardly a leader among man. What was missing what the presence of Argumentable who everyone knew. You essentially have to be the leader for everyone by yourself. I think this is less about numbers and more about filling a function and you're the only one doing that.

This has become quite a diverse community, hasn't it.

Limepie is perhaps not as public as me about his actions but that is simply because I advertise my actions for clarity, whereas Limepie doesn't do that.

He is just as much a moderator as me and is still instrumental in the health of the haus.

raocow has always liked relegating moderating to the mods as it is a messy business in practice, and you need to be willing to piss some people off during the course of moderating. Rao prefers this for the same reason the Game Grumps turned down moderating their own subreddit, simply put he wants to be a member more than an overseer, to just chillax with us all instead of worrying over banning, warning, and whatnot.

This has become a diverse community indeed.

Changing the contents of user posts AT ALL without asking or being asked to
This one should be obvious. If we can't even trust our mods to leave our posts untouched on principle, how do we know that what we see is actually the user's original message?

I have done this only thrice. Twice with alex2 in the "Demote Bwarch" thread, both times making it very obvious the changes I'd made, and once with Ashan's Mighty No. 9 thread. That one I didn't make it obvious on.

Downright deleting posts "to preserve the quality of the thread"
Due to obvious reasons, I have no direct proof for this, so I'd like a word or two on this from Bwarch himself, but if this is true (as I've heard it is), then it's just as bad as changing the contents of posts without being asked to do so.

In the Mighty No. 9 thread me, Ashan and BTYM had an argument about my forcing the banner to be in the OP. I like the Mighty No. 9 thread. A lot. I viewed the argument as a terrible start to resetting the thread after Talkhaustrophe and I did not want the entirety of the whole first page of the thread to be an argument on the action. I deleted four posts in all, one of my own in there, removing the trace of the argument from the Mighty No. 9 thread.

[Bwarch]

Overall, I'm voting for Bwarch to step down, because he's easily the most controlling mod we've had in a while and seems to aim to shape the forums more after his views than the community's views.

Put this in the voting thread please.

[Aposke]

In the Mighty No. 9 thread me, Ashan and BTYM had an argument about my forcing the banner to be in the OP. I like the Mighty No. 9 thread. A lot. I viewed the argument as a terrible start to resetting the thread after Talkhaustrophe and I did not want the entirety of the whole first page of the thread to be an argument on the action. I deleted four posts in all, one of my own in there, removing the trace of the argument from the Mighty No. 9 thread.

So let me recap:

You fell in love with the Mighty No. 9 thread, decide for yourself that Ashan's opening post wasn't "doing the game justice" or whatever, then go on to modify it, and when someone complains about your modification, YOU DELETE THEIR COMPLAINTS, essentially removing all traits of your modification ever happening?
And you see no problem with this?

[Septentrion Pleiades]

Some things that you (Bwarch) do that I'm generally against:

Graveyarding single posts that are not spam or downright insults

Changing the contents of user posts AT ALL without asking or being asked to

Graveyarding and post-editing in "joke-threads" like [url=http://talkhaus.raocow.com

Taking the "hentai" thing too seriously

Downright deleting posts "to preserve the quality of the thread"

Overall, I'm voting for Bwarch to step down, because he's easily the most controlling mod we've had in a while and seems to aim to shape the forums more after his views than the community's views.

Most of this seems like gazebo stuff so I natural miss most of it. All I noticed was general weirdness.

Then there is the fact that coming out in this format causes drama, which is something a mod general isn't suppose to do. There was a better was to do all of this "feedback thread" and not doing that because you didn't want too is quite rash.

I think that you have failed a few time in judgements with things I was around to observe, but Aposke's list and alex's post does have a few things to indicate that those aren't flukes.

However, I don't blame this all on you, bwarch. Limepie should have been a better source of guidance. It's to common to blame a systemic problem on one person.

As for a replacement, which must happen if you step down, I don't think one person can fill the position. Another new mod at the same time could have been helpful as a peer to discuss things with.

[Bwarch]

You fell in love with the Mighty No. 9 thread, decide for yourself that Ashan's opening post wasn't "doing the game justice" or whatever, then go on to modify it, and when someone complains about your modification, YOU DELETE THEIR COMPLAINTS, essentially removing all traits of your modification ever happening?
And you see no problem with this?

I reinstated the banner because the banner was in the OP of the original Mighty No. 9 thread before Talkhaustrophe.

For what it's worth, I would have been more than for somebody opening up a complaint thread and continuing on the argument there.

In hindsight, I should have split the posts off from the topic, started a topic in suggestion maybe and moved the posts there for the decision to be debated upon.

Hindsight being 20/20 I suppose.

However, I don't blame this all on you, bwarch. Limepie should have been a better source of guidance. It's to common to blame a systemic problem on one person.

As for a replacement, which must happen if you step down, I don't think one person can fill the position. Another new mod at the same time could have been helpful as a peer to discuss things with.

Me and Limepie have two people in particular in mind for a mod position. I would prefer to instate only one, but if the decision is loud enough we will probably consider instating both.

[Aposke]

I would say stay on: my main reason is that Argumentable would more likely do the same actions that you do; If not then limepie20 would do it. There were some questionable decision that you made, but it's part of the learning experience.

First off: No, they wouldn't. I've never seen limepie (and especially not argumentable) delete or edit individual posts in a thread just to make it more to their liking.

Second off: He's not learning from it. As Alex said, he seems to have a mindset of "I don't care what people think of me and my actions; I'm a mod and this place needs fixing."
Exchanges like this one are apparently typical:
[4:39:10 AM] TheGreekBrit: Don't delete posts
[4:39:21 AM] TheGreekBrit: It's bad and it makes everyone unhappy
[4:39:32 AM] Bwarch: Will if I think it's for the best.

[Bwarch]

The haus will have its fair share of crappy threads that can and should be graveyarded for the better. This is a place of talking, conversations that annoy users are poisonous. Also, a moderator needs to be able to step in when somebody is generally being offensive, racist or sexist. This is my general line of thinking when moderating.

Also: The reason I don't put a restriction on my deleting posts ability is because that's dumb. DO remember that I delete bot posts on a daily basis, which goes into deleting somebody's post, Aposke.

Putting the restriction to not delete posts on a moderator is dumb. It calls into question that people do not have the foresight to see what could happen to the haus in the future. There are scenarios that can transpire that would have the outcome of the better option being to delete the entire thing.

This is my thinking.

[Aposke]

The haus will have its fair share of crappy threads that can and should be graveyarded for the better. This is a place of talking, conversations that annoy users are poisonous.

And you assume absolute knowledge of what "annoys users" and what doesn't?

Also, a moderator needs to be able to step in when somebody is generally being offensive, racist or sexist. This is my general line of thinking when moderating.

I agree, but those cases are rare and not something I was complaining about.

Also: The reason I don't put a restriction on my deleting posts ability is because that's dumb. DO remember that I delete bot posts on a daily basis, which goes into deleting somebody's post, Aposke.

Deleting obvious bot posts =/= deleting posts of actual breathing, thinking humans.

Putting the restriction to not delete posts on a moderator is dumb. It calls into question that people do not have the foresight to see what could happen to the haus in the future. There are scenarios that can transpire that would have the outcome of the better option being to delete the entire thing.

Dude. The people of the Talkhaus aren't robots. Their conversations aren't forseeable, calculateable events. Heck, you might not even know these individuals well enough to judge if someone took something as a serious offense or not, and even then, one has to question if their reaction is justified or not.
Human interaction has way more variables than you think. You can't account for all of them. And what you definitely can't is "foresee" what could happen to the Haus. Assuming otherwise is either a fear of loss of control, self-overestimation or arrogance.

This is my thinking.

And I disagree with your thinking.

[Bwarch]

The haus will have its fair share of crappy threads that can and should be graveyarded for the better. This is a place of talking, conversations that annoy users are poisonous.

And you assume absolute knowledge of what "annoys users" and what doesn't?

Of course not. In such cases I take into account what users say to me. I will ask for opinions on IRC and my Skype and Steam lists. Also what people say in the thread itself. And of course my own decision making will play a heavy role.

[Septentrion Pleiades]

One major aspect of moderation is the social element, One thread I can think of the the original Dating Sim thread. It seems that since I mentioned it was feeling up with nonsense, it was remove so it could be started anew, but a better method might have been to diffused the nonsense with some leadership. By leadership, I don't mean authority, but by mentioning what type of post would be helpful. Driving a conversation isn't to hard to do.

Now I not 100% percent sure I got this event right, but my example stands. You generally do not live up to the standards of leadership and use the mod tools instead.

[Bwarch]

One major aspect of moderation is the social element, One thread I can think of the the original Dating Sim thread. It seems that since I mentioned it was feeling up with nonsense, it was remove so it could be started anew, but a better method might have been to diffused the nonsense with some leadership. By leadership, I don't mean authority, but by mentioning what type of post would be helpful. Driving a conversation isn't to hard to do.

Now I not 100% percent sure I got this event right, but my example stands. You generally do not live up to the standards of leadership and use the mod tools instead.

For the most part the dating sim's original thread was ping ponged on asking you guys

[1/3/2014 9:43:20 PM] Bwarch: Now, I can do two things.
[1/3/2014 9:43:45 PM] Bwarch: I can move the original thread you made in Collaboration ideas into the new subforum, or I can lock and graveyard it.
[1/3/2014 9:43:49 PM] Bwarch: Which would you prefer?
[1/3/2014 9:44:44 PM] GrimDarkening: the yard of gravy
[1/3/2014 9:45:23 PM] Bwarch: You got it baws.

And then

[1/4/2014 5:34:14 PM] TheGreekBrit: Did you trash the original thread for this collab
[1/4/2014 5:34:30 PM] Bwarch: On asking Grim, yes.
[1/4/2014 5:34:34 PM] TheGreekBrit: Put it back
[1/4/2014 5:34:39 PM] Bwarch: No.
[1/4/2014 5:34:44 PM] TheGreekBrit: You fucking shit let me talk
[1/4/2014 5:34:49 PM] TheGreekBrit: There's no other fucking explanation
[1/4/2014 5:34:56 PM] TheGreekBrit: I'm getting PMs asking what the fuck is going on
[1/4/2014 5:35:00 PM] TheGreekBrit: Put the thread back and lock it
[1/4/2014 5:36:15 PM] Bwarch: If they can't read and figure out what's going on already just from looking in on the threads already there they won't read the locked thread either.
[1/4/2014 5:36:53 PM] TheGreekBrit: [Saturday, January 04, 2014 5:35 PM] Aposke/LiquidCrystal:

<<< Tell him to get it back
[1/4/2014 5:37:05 PM] TheGreekBrit: Stop being a dick
[1/4/2014 5:37:23 PM] Bwarch: Oy. Very well.

[Aposke]

Oh we're posting chat logs now?
I can post chat logs too!
Like those that actually show that Limepie didn't agree with you on every single mod decision you made.

[12/14/2013 1:38:33 AM] Bwarch: Limepie and raocow are more than fine with my methods.
[12/14/2013 1:39:09 AM] Bwarch: And regardless of what the forum thinks we do in fact need somebody around who is willing to control the quality of the forum as a whole.

[12/14/2013 1:12:57 AM] TheGreekBrit:
[Friday, December 13, 2013 12:03 AM] Bwarch:
<<< At this point unless I do something really stupid I doubt I'd get kicked off the team.
And I mean reeeeeally stupid.
[12/14/2013 1:15:20 AM] limepie20: aw man
[12/14/2013 1:15:40 AM] limepie20: I don't want to make him upset
[12/14/2013 1:15:48 AM] TheGreekBrit: He's a grown ass man
[12/14/2013 1:16:52 AM] TheGreekBrit: You're head mod through seniority
[12/14/2013 1:17:14 AM] TheGreekBrit: Kick him into shape now before it becomes a problem
[12/14/2013 1:19:02 AM] limepie20: well that's what I'm trying right now
[12/14/2013 1:24:50 AM] limepie20:
[Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:15 AM] TheGreekBrit:
<<< He's a grown ass man
[12/14/2013 1:24:55 AM] limepie20: I'm too nice

[12/31/2013 1:52:09 PM] TheGreekBrit: The thread was in good humor until Bwarch decided to shit all over it
[12/31/2013 1:52:15 PM] TheGreekBrit: And delete all my posts
[12/31/2013 1:53:01 PM] limepie20: well yeah first of all, I don't like what Bwarch did
[12/31/2013 1:53:17 PM] TheGreekBrit: First of all I don't like Bwarch
[12/31/2013 1:53:30 PM] limepie20: did anything trigger that thread or was it just for fun?
[12/31/2013 1:53:38 PM] limepie20: I couldn't tell by the time I got to it
[12/31/2013 1:54:05 PM] TheGreekBrit: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=467&start=5550#p183123
[12/31/2013 1:54:38 PM] TheGreekBrit: Also because he banned me because he won't lock global domination
[12/31/2013 1:54:42 PM] limepie20: why'd you make the first post, though?
[12/31/2013 1:55:16 PM] limepie20: wasn't that a couple days ago?
[12/31/2013 1:55:32 PM] TheGreekBrit: Yesterday?
[12/31/2013 1:55:41 PM] limepie20: whatever
[12/31/2013 1:56:01 PM] limepie20: yeah I'm trying to point stuff out to Bwarch
[12/31/2013 1:56:15 PM] limepie20: and when I got to that thread it was pretty bad
[12/31/2013 1:56:29 PM] limepie20: if you want to say it was all for fun, fine
[12/31/2013 1:56:38 PM] TheGreekBrit: He kept deleting and editing every one of my posts
[12/31/2013 1:56:40 PM] limepie20: but there were shit posts there too as well as a triple post iirc
[12/31/2013 1:56:58 PM] limepie20: yeah I know
[12/31/2013 1:57:04 PM] TheGreekBrit: Double post
[12/31/2013 1:57:04 PM] limepie20: and I don't aprove of it
[12/31/2013 1:57:33 PM] TheGreekBrit: It looks like a triple post but I guess he undeleted one of them
[12/31/2013 1:58:21 PM] limepie20: I gotta go right now, but I'll talk to him about it
[12/31/2013 1:58:47 PM] TheGreekBrit: Later
[12/31/2013 4:32:49 PM] TheGreekBrit: He's trying to get me to cut down on my swearing
[12/31/2013 4:33:01 PM] TheGreekBrit: Like
[12/31/2013 4:33:03 PM] TheGreekBrit: What?
[12/31/2013 4:41:33 PM] limepie20: yeah that's stupid

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, and the Talkhaus-VN thread thingie was mostly a communicative mistake between Grimdarkening and me. Bwarch's only mistake was to take the initiative in asking her to delete it when he, as Sep said, could've just dropped a friendly hint.

[Septentrion Pleiades]

One major aspect of moderation is the social element, One thread I can think of the the original Dating Sim thread. It seems that since I mentioned it was feeling up with nonsense, it was remove so it could be started anew, but a better method might have been to diffused the nonsense with some leadership. By leadership, I don't mean authority, but by mentioning what type of post would be helpful. Driving a conversation isn't to hard to do.

Now I not 100% percent sure I got this event right, but my example stands. You generally do not live up to the standards of leadership and use the mod tools instead.

For the most part the dating sim's original thread was ping ponged on asking you guys
Details

Here's what went wrong: You didn't explain what happened in a final post in that thread.

Also, you didn't drive the conversation to a more appropriate place.

Y'all are too vanilla to be in this thread.

so my point still stands.

[Jesuiscontent]

Nice turning this thread into a settling of scores. You guys are depressing

Bwarch, you made mistakes as a mod but you shouldn't step down only on demand of the few people who have been personally upset by your actions.