Contest levels should use the same tools and the same canvas. SMBX and SMW are too radically different in terms of physics, difficulty curve, and options/potential in different aspects that the levels made with them do not really compare with each other, and as such can't really be judged together.spitznagl wrote:Why does the SMW magl necessarily have to be a separate thing? I don't want to be the annoying guy who tries to change the rules, I'm just wondering.
Who knows, I might finally surrender and try out that evil smbx thing.
MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
I think what spitznagl is suggesting is two separate MAGL contests (one for SMW, one for SMBX), both with separate winners and LPs (and probably judges and rules as well), but running parallel.
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
There are degrees of subjectivity, though. Imagine a judge loves water levels and hates sky levels. If they proceed to put the worst water level above the best sky level, they probably haven't done a good job as a judge. An outcome like that would suggest they weren't giving much thought to what could make sky levels good for people who do enjoy them, or what would hurt a water level.Leet wrote:What I mean is, there's no reason that the judging categories wouldn't be 100% opinion-based. Level design can't be rated on an objective scale - if it could, then there would be no need for judges in the first place, and every level could be systematically rated based on how objectively good the level design is. Some judges are going to consider some level design 'good' that other judges won't. You can only judge with opinions, that's what makes it judging. "Good design practice" contains the word 'good' in it, and is therefore impossible to be anything but opinion... :/
I don't think a water-over-sky-level bias is particularly likely. But biases like it exist - someone who really doesn't like danmaku levels might hate Kagome Kagome, but if they're awarding points I would want them to recognize that it's a solid level within that genre. And there are levels that are a lot of fun but not particularly well-designed; Toad House is a good example. It's great to play through, but there isn't a lot of substance to it, and I'd probably have scored it pretty low myself even though I really enjoyed it.
And to be perfectly clear, I'm not objecting to judges docking points because they didn't enjoy a level. It's a question of how much they can dock on that basis alone. On the other hand, that has a lot more to do with how the judges handle the scores than what the categories are; if the judges are making an effort to keep too much of their score from being about their personal biases, then things will work out fine as far as placement goes. The one issue I can see there is that it wouldn't be very clear from the score alone why exactly the level is losing points, but judge comments can cover that.
Basically, I agree with Ignoritus' general concern, but I think it's more about judging principles than the specific categories. As long as it's accounted for, it doesn't matter much whether it's accounted for by judges acting on their own or reflected in the categories. Nothing big is really at stake in this contest, so what matters here is whether people feel the judges gave them a fair chance.
Edit: I see that more's been posted about this since I wrote it.
The point is more of that, if that somehow happens, we don't want their Kaizo-love having too much of an influence over the results. Only a few people are going to be judging, so they might, by chance, all end up having a weird preference that the general audience doesn't share. If they're judging well, though, that won't have a huge impact on the winner; at worst it will be a level that most people agree deserves in the range of 80-90 points but happens to specifically appeal to the judges. Which is perfectly fine by me; that's basically point variance and can't be avoided. The more extreme versions can be.Leet wrote:@ignoritus: If the majority of people understand why kaizo levels are niche, then the majority of judges likely won't be huge fans of kaizo levels...
This is true! But the key point is not that these are necessarily better or more objective metrics than "did I, personally, enjoy the level", but that they're different ones. That means they'll have different answers, and those answers will generally be more informative to people who aren't the judge than "did the judge enjoy the level". That doesn't mean I don't want to know if the judge enjoyed the level, I just don't want that to be the primary factor in the score.Leet wrote:Also none of the things you listed are objectively good because there's literally no such thing as objectively good.
Now I'm going to attempt to post again and find that five more posts have been made.
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
lolano0maly wrote:E: so if a contest doesn't have a fun category that means you can't have fun in it, gotcha
You're all really hellbent on ruining the contest due to arguing and infighting and general drama and fighting over rules and whatnot and it's just really saddening to see when it's a contest that doesn't really affect life that much for the overall winners and whatnot. It would be lovely to see a contest where we just let judges have their opinions and be done with it instead of arguing over it for no good reason whatsoever.
It's a contest being held on some random ass forum over a couple game engines that we're interested in a niche kind of way, with no material prize even. And yet it's worth arguments that go on for pages and pages anyway.
The fun category is important because it tries to remind people quite heavily what this is all about, what we're trying to do to begin with. Have a bit of fun. That's all.
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
In my opinion that may change...
The constructiveness, fairness and good feedback are important too.
Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
As convincing as that point may be Bwarch, you're not being constructive and you haven't listened to anything I've said. This is a terrible attitude and exactly why MAGL contests have drama in the first place - someone makes one comment about the opinions, the fun, the theme or the rankings, people just jump in with snarky comments and yell "How dare you say one word about our beautiful contest!" The reason we have the planning and discussion at all is so that we can improve the contest experience.
Now if you have something worthwhile to say please reread my posts carefully and see why I'm not advocating that the contest judging is 100% objective nor am I trying to take away the fun. I'm busy now and I don't think it's worth retyping the same thing.
fakeedit: @Willhart My objection (which I believe some others sympathize with) to that is that personal enjoyment isn't equivalent to personal evaluation of good design, as I've said, since the former is more susceptible to non-design factors like associated fandom.
Now if you have something worthwhile to say please reread my posts carefully and see why I'm not advocating that the contest judging is 100% objective nor am I trying to take away the fun. I'm busy now and I don't think it's worth retyping the same thing.
fakeedit: @Willhart My objection (which I believe some others sympathize with) to that is that personal enjoyment isn't equivalent to personal evaluation of good design, as I've said, since the former is more susceptible to non-design factors like associated fandom.
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
ano0maly wrote:fakeedit: @Willhart My objection (which I believe some others sympathize with) to that is that personal enjoyment isn't equivalent to personal evaluation of good design, as I've said, since the former is more susceptible to non-design factors like associated fandom.
You take a risk with every reference you make. The level full of cat planets will likely not win due to being too aggressive, unless it is executed/varied exceptionally well. The purpose needs to be realized and non-design factors are important too, since they can make the level more enjoyable.Longest level should not automatically win.
Edit: I'm not against giving some points for good level design too.
Last edited by Willhart 9 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
This is a well put way of explaining what I don't think I explained very well. I'm not against a fun factor, or even a relatively large fun factor. I'm against the fact there is literally no factor for design whatsoever. As ano0maly put it, if we're just judging entirely off of how much fun random people have with a level we might as well just have a community vote (ignoring of course the fact that you can't expect everyone who votes to play every level).Dragon Fogel wrote: And to be perfectly clear, I'm not objecting to judges docking points because they didn't enjoy a level. It's a question of how much they can dock on that basis alone. On the other hand, that has a lot more to do with how the judges handle the scores than what the categories are; if the judges are making an effort to keep too much of their score from being about their personal biases, then things will work out fine as far as placement goes. The one issue I can see there is that it wouldn't be very clear from the score alone why exactly the level is losing points, but judge comments can cover that.
This is diminishing an issue in order to justify ignoring it rather than solving it, and it's a really horrible thing to do.Bwarch wrote:You're all really hellbent on ruining the contest due to arguing and infighting and general drama and fighting over rules and whatnot and it's just really saddening to see when it's a contest that doesn't really affect life that much for the overall winners and whatnot. It would be lovely to see a contest where we just let judges have their opinions and be done with it instead of arguing over it for no good reason whatsoever.
It's a contest being held on some random ass forum over a couple game engines that we're interested in a niche kind of way, with no material prize even. And yet it's worth arguments that go on for pages and pages anyway.
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
Again, that could go both ways. The level names you could get are super crappy while the letter combinations you receive are decent to work with and vice versa. I just think with letters you have a bit more freedom and you can actually think of several titles in a combination more so than receiving 5 names you have to work from and going "oh well I guess these are my title names".raekuul wrote: The issue here is that it's a layer of difficulty that literally has no bearing on if the level itself is good or not. Much like Zyglrox pointed out with my idea, you're losing points for something that shouldn't be penalized to begin with.
EDIT: To clarify, yes this is something I didn't like about last MaGLX, but randomly assigned names is easier to work with than randomly assigned letters - precisely because a random name means we at least have an idea going in as for how to make them fit.
See, I feel the idea of a "gimmick" has turned into the thought of "what limiting but fun twist could we use?" There really hasn't been a gimmick that doesn't really relate to how good the level actually is. If anything the current definition of a gimmick would probably change the theme of a level, which again doesn't necessarily does anything to make it better. If you don't like having a gimmick then why vote for one?
edit: The more I think about it, I think there shouldn't be very many points put into a gimmick like letters. Since the only critique you could make about is whether they did it or not. Oh well.
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
It was I who voted for you. Yep, I changed my vote.FluffiMasta wrote:Oh my god who voted for me
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Ningamer wrote:It was I who voted for you. Yep, I changed my vote.FluffiMasta wrote:Oh my god who voted for me
You know that is a waste of a precious vote, now isn't it?
I'd rather advise you to vote for someone with a good idea for a gimmick.
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
I'll try to be a bit clearer here.
I don't want the score to just reflect "the judge's subjective opinion of whether they, as an individual, enjoyed the level". I want it to reflect, to a larger degree, "the judge's subjective opinion of whether other people would enjoy the level". It's not about being "objective", it's about being subjective in a way that's more useful to me as a non-judge who may eventually play the level.
Of course, it's hard to know if other people will enjoy the level if you don't, or vice versa. So you do that by looking at things like "level design" or "gameplay" or "execution" - yes, the definitions of these things are somewhat vague, and they aren't perfect indicators of whether other people will like something. But they point you in that direction.
However, given that not a whole lot is at stake in this contest, I personally don't really care if this is addressed in the categories or just by judges trying to keep it in mind. I don't even think it's likely to be a problem; overall, I feel the judging worked out fine in the last MAGL X. But I do think it's worth talking about.
I don't want the score to just reflect "the judge's subjective opinion of whether they, as an individual, enjoyed the level". I want it to reflect, to a larger degree, "the judge's subjective opinion of whether other people would enjoy the level". It's not about being "objective", it's about being subjective in a way that's more useful to me as a non-judge who may eventually play the level.
Of course, it's hard to know if other people will enjoy the level if you don't, or vice versa. So you do that by looking at things like "level design" or "gameplay" or "execution" - yes, the definitions of these things are somewhat vague, and they aren't perfect indicators of whether other people will like something. But they point you in that direction.
However, given that not a whole lot is at stake in this contest, I personally don't really care if this is addressed in the categories or just by judges trying to keep it in mind. I don't even think it's likely to be a problem; overall, I feel the judging worked out fine in the last MAGL X. But I do think it's worth talking about.
Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
I like just pure level design when making levels but if it mkaes you feel better, I just said that to make you feel better about loosing to Horikawa.FluffiMasta wrote:Ningamer wrote:It was I who voted for you. Yep, I changed my vote.FluffiMasta wrote:Oh my god who voted for me
You know that is a waste of a precious vote, now isn't it?
I'd rather advise you to vote for someone with a good idea for a gimmick.
Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
Yeah, it's like, just because there's "no such thing as objective" doesn't mean judges shouldn't try to be objective, or at least as close to objective as possible. I think a fun factor is very important, but it's also important to consider if a level is actually "good" or not.
Isn't this a good thing, though? I kinda see the "gimmick" as a constraint that encourages entrants to make something different from what they'd make normally, and also to deter people from entering a premade level. I like the name gimmick because it's limiting, but thinking about it I can see why the letter gimmick would be better if you want a more "open" contest.Sturg wrote:See, I feel the idea of a "gimmick" has turned into the thought of "what limiting but fun twist could we use?" There really hasn't been a gimmick that doesn't really relate to how good the level actually is.
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
Making something different from what one would make normally is kind of silly to say, since most of the time people will always make something different whether they limited to what title they have or not. Instead you are more than likely required to make something different that has been assigned to the degree a of receiving your titles, rather than taking it back even further and coming up with your own title along with the level. The level name can easily describe what level is going to be produced and it just seems more "open" to me. And it's not like it's the worst thing in the world to submit an older level anyway, it still can give a representation of how good of a designer someone is. With the exception that if it was used in public somewhere else prior, I think it is totally fine.Holy wrote: Isn't this a good thing, though? I kinda see the "gimmick" as a constraint that encourages entrants to make something different from what they'd make normally, and also to deter people from entering a pre-made level. I like the name gimmick because it's limiting, but thinking about it I can see why the letter gimmick would be better if you want a more "open" contest.
And again, yeah I'm more for an "open" contest, but that's just my thought process.
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
Voted sedron because I'm sure hard mode is gonna makes some awesome levels with those crazy mixed themes.
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
^ Yeah that's what I ment, I enjoyed both how well it ran and the gimmick that allowed me to be creative, would be nice to do essentially the same gimmick again.Zyglrox Odyssey wrote:Horikawa's idea is the closest to the first MaGL X's gimmick, to be fair.ano0maly wrote:That's a pretty bad reason to vote... I mean it's not like someone else can't run a contest just as good or well.Xirix wrote:I had a hell of a lot of fun with the first MAGL X so my vote is for Horikawa. ^^
Zyglrox's anonymous contest plans idea would've been a good idea to be honest.
Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
As great of a job as Horikawa did and as wonderful of a gimmick it was, for the sake of variety I must vote Sturg
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
Voting for sedron. After not designing anything for a month, I'm going to need a challenge.
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Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
I've just noticed that Horikawa has set up a first past the post voting system. This will be fine if one candidate gets more than 50% of the votes, but if the figures stay similar to what they are now, Horikawa will have won despite getting 38% of the vote.
In the event of a minority win, will there be a second round of voting?
In the event of a minority win, will there be a second round of voting?
Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
pls stop making new accounts to vote or i will publically shame you
Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
*Gets Publicly shamed.
Anyways, I don't really get the idea of this. Like what if someone like Horikawa posts the best idea ever for running MaGL X2 while a noob spams his dumb idea. Everyone votes for the noob for some reason. Does the noob run the contest even though he has no knowledge about anything related to MaGL?
Anyways, I don't really get the idea of this. Like what if someone like Horikawa posts the best idea ever for running MaGL X2 while a noob spams his dumb idea. Everyone votes for the noob for some reason. Does the noob run the contest even though he has no knowledge about anything related to MaGL?
Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
I don't think I can bring myself to write a snarky reply to this on Christmas.Ningamer wrote:*Gets Publicly shamed.
Anyways, I don't really get the idea of this. Like what if someone like Horikawa posts the best idea ever for running MaGL X2 while a noob spams his dumb idea. Everyone votes for the noob for some reason. Does the noob run the contest even though he has no knowledge about anything related to MaGL?
Ningamer, why do you think this is a realistic concern? Under what circumstances are the majority of Talkhausers, most of whom have demonstrated informed decision-making abilities, going to vote for clearly terrible ideas?
Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
I understand what your saying. It could/would never happen. It's just my 2 cents on voting.
Re: MaGL X2 Organiser - VOTE HERE!
Like, in general, you're against voting because in some circumstances it could lead to undesirable outcomes?