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Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

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sedron
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby sedron » 11 months ago

Okay so this thread is kind of a mess and I have no idea what's expected of me at the moment. So I have two main questions.

1) What elements are expected to be in the town? I would like a concise list so I know exactly what buildings and such are requires (shops, etc.)

More importantly, at least for Fluffi and I...

2) Are we actually expected to use CinematX or anything other than Vanilla? I asked for the town spot, what, a year and a half ago under the assumption that I'd be using basically vanilla SMBX. I have no desire to put the time into learning anything outside of vanilla. I have too much on my plate as is to justify doing that. If this is an issue, I'm likely gonna have to relinquish my spot. Fluffi also doesn't want to touch CinematX.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby SAJewers » 11 months ago

Hoeloe wrote:
As for waiting on people, that's not what A2MT's problem was.
It doesn't matter. Many people have stated time and time again that we should not be waiting on anything, and that waiting on things should be avoided 100%, even if it means cutting an entire idea. This has been discussed to death, and the outcome has always been the same, don't wait for anything.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby Hoeloe » 11 months ago

SAJewers wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:
As for waiting on people, that's not what A2MT's problem was.
It doesn't matter. Many people have stated time and time again that we should not be waiting on anything, and that waiting on things should be avoided 100%, even if it means cutting an entire idea. This has been discussed to death, and the outcome has always been the same, don't wait for anything.
Except that, as I stated, this is literally impossible to achieve, even if we stripped out all the Lua stuff. The issue is that LunaLua is undergoing a lot of changes, but most of them are focussing on 2.0 at the moment. Once the 2.0 update is released, hopefully some focus can be given back to A2XT to reduce the amount people are waiting for bugfixes and changes (for content that already exists, by the way, not to add new features with). The fact of that matter is that how ever much you say "we need to avoid waiting for other people", you just can't avoid it. Unless the entire game is developed by one person, there will ALWAYS, without fail, be a case where someone is waiting for someone else. This is just a fact of development. The issue is compounded by LunaLua and related libraries being constantly updated, so things that rely on those things (including existing levels) need to wait for the updates to be in a stable position to fix it.

I'm not talking about waiting indefinitely, all I'm saying is that sometimes there will be things that can't be done until something else is done first. Much like how the towns weren't started until most of the levels were in place, or the overworld layouts weren't decided before we had 90% of the levels submitted and knew where the secret exits were. These are things that required waiting. I'm not talking about waiting for things that might be neat to add new features, I'm talking about waiting that is REQUIRED for things to work. You can't get rid of waiting entirely, but what you can do is prevent the scope getting larger.

See, waiting for things won't kill a project OR make development take longer, as long as some precautionary measures are put in place. The real issue with waiting is if you allow the scope to increase unbounded while things are being worked on. This is one of the problems with A2MT. Essentially, the issue here is that person A is waiting on person B, so person A comes up with a new feature to add, which then ends up spilling over development time even after person B is finished, and now person C has to wait longer for the thing person A was originally working on, so person C comes up with another feature, etc. and the project continues to bloat and is never finished. This can be easily fixed by finalising the feature set so no new features can be added.

But waiting on people also won't make development take longer, either, because most of the time, you're waiting for something that is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. And even if you're not, all it means is that someone else has to redo the work you've already started, and in 90% of cases that will take longer than just waiting and finishing off what is already there.

When I talk about "waiting" I don't mean "sitting doing nothing while other people do stuff", I mean "being forced to pause on a specific thing until somebody else has done something that is necessary for it to work". A good example of this is the HUD stuff. I was waiting for a long time for features in LunaLua that were required to get the HUD to work how it was planned (and this was discussed with you - no score counter, negative lives, SMW-esque design, etc. ), because this wasn't possible with the technology that existed. So I pressed Rednaxela to help, and he's now introduced some stuff that might be able to do what we need. But in the meantime I wasn't just doing nothing, I was waiting for Rednaxela, but also working on my own levels and town, and sorting out plot.

See without waiting on other people you don't get any sort of collaboration. Period. What you get is a bunch of people making their own separate thing and slapping them together at the end. This is one of the reasons ASMBXT's story was such a mess - because there was no collaboration and they tried to totally parallelise it instead of constructing it properly, which would require waiting on scripts, levels, world designs, boss designs, etc.

Waiting is not a bad thing, it's not about getting it perfect, it's about making it even slightly good, not broken, and cutting development time overall while maintaining a high quality level - something we actually CAN do, unlike a lot of professional game studios, because we're not forced to tie everything together and push it out the door as soon as possible in order to meet a deadline. That sort of structure is what results in such masterpieces as Sonic Boom.

I don't buy your argument that "waiting is bad because it's bad", I want this game to be as good as it can be, not just "eh good enough", and trying to push it out the door as fast as possible isn't going to achieve that.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby SAJewers » 11 months ago

One problem: we agreed a long time ago that this is a simple project with little to no barriers, and that any idea that people came up with wouldn't even be considered unless they posted a working version of their idea, and people agreed to use it in their content.

What you're saying is all fine and well, but that's not what we decided on when we started this entire thing.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby Hoeloe » 11 months ago

SAJewers wrote:One problem: we agreed a long time ago that this is a simple project with little to no barriers, and that any idea that people came up with wouldn't even be considered unless they posted a working version of their idea, and people agreed to use it in their content.

What you're saying is all fine and well, but that's not what we decided on when we started this entire thing.
But that's exactly what I'm talking about. A lot of things have "working versions" that have been posted and agreed upon, even by you, but aren't finished. CinematX is a big factor in this whole thing. I'm not talking about adding new things, I'm talking about finishing what's already been started. I'm just concerned because you seem to be suggesting stripping out a lot of the work that has already been done, such as the new leek pillar sanctuaries, half-completed quests, etc. just because they MIGHT require someone to finish off underlying things before they can be finished themselves, and that seems totally backwards to me, as it would only serve to make things take longer as much of the game would need replanning.

All I'm suggesting is that we say to what we have planned now (which includes basic in-town quests) "this is how it is going to be, no more", and then let people work on those elements in the time they have available. I'm just arguing against saying "everything must be done by X date and if it's not then it's not being included", because a lot of the elements, both planned and currently in development, are interlinked, so if some are cut it's going to require an awful lot of cleanup afterwards that will likely take longer than it would if we just finish what we have planned in the first place.

I'm not suggesting we change anything in any way, quite the opposite. I'm advocating that we stick with exactly what has been planned, and don't change it by either adding OR removing planned features, as those are both going to cause problems.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby SAJewers » 11 months ago

Sorry, by "working version", i meant a finished product. Passwords were only a thing in ASMBXT once everything regarding it was 100% done. Cutscenes in A2XTEp1 were not going happen until they were 100% done, and people were ready to move on without them.

If you want to continue with what you guys are working on right now, we can do that for just this time, since shaman hasn't really been around to enforce this, and I may have not been clear when talking about this before, but I want to wholly avoid this in the future; the spot we're in is exactly the thing almost everyone said we should never be in. I would just prefer this gets done ASAP. If you have to modify something, then consider it.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby Hoeloe » 11 months ago

SAJewers wrote: If you want to continue with what you guys are working on right now, we can do that for just this time, since shaman hasn't really been around to enforce this, and I may have not been clear when talking about this before, but I want to wholly avoid this in the future; the spot we're in is exactly the thing almost everyone said we should never be in. I would just prefer this gets done ASAP. If you have to modify something, then consider it.
I get the feeling we're not in the sort of spot you seem to think we are. Things are moving slowly, yes, but that's actually a lot to do with factors outside this matter. For one thing, I've been really struggling to find time and energy to do much on the pieces I'm working on (and I know similar things are true of other people too). CinematX was implemented and working in earlier levels, but has since needed a thorough rewriting because of changes to LunaLua and is now only partially complete. It's also got a lot to do with 2.0, as a lot of the people who would otherwise be working on A2XT are putting their time into the 2.0 update, meaning that not a lot of work is going into A2XT right now.

I think a lot of the current problems could be solved by defining a solid feature set for the game, and a guide for how towns should be laid out (how shops should function, how quest elements should work, etc. ). This I think would let more people get on with what they're doing. This may be worth discussing in the Skype group, to work out exactly what we're going to do.

A2XT isn't in trouble at the moment, it just needs a little guidance to keep it on track, nothing major.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby SAJewers » 11 months ago

No, pretty much everything you said is what people wanted to avoid.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby Rockythechao » 11 months ago

The cinematX rewrite is not going to be for Ep. 2. The version for Ep. 2 is mostly finalized aside from some bugfixes and merging features from one version of the source to another.

The conversation's moved on from the quest levels, but to be absolutely clear, the intent for those was that all of them would all be made after the quests were decided, which, the way I figured at the time, would likely be after the remaining regular slots were filled; the first already being made was just a dumb, backwards attempt at being pragmatic, details under the below spoiler.

Get Schooled (yes, that's the name of the level, it's a lazy fish pun, can be changed if necessary) came about from a combination of fiddling with the camera, autoscrolling and paralX. My first thought was "this could be used in Ep. 2. Do we have any 5-1 slots left?" We didn't. Then, "maybe I can put this toward a different area of Ep. 2", and instead being logical and thinking about how I could change it to fit one of the other worlds, I jumped to "if I made this in a day, I can make more. Maybe instead of just proposing ideas like the quest levels, I should put my money where my mouth is and offer to do them when the time comes."

I am fully willing to change the level to fit a regular slot if it'll work for any, and I will not be making any further levels for specific out-of-scope placement while there are still slots to fill or otherwise pressing the issue.
sedron wrote:Okay so this thread is kind of a mess and I have no idea what's expected of me at the moment. So I have two main questions.

1) What elements are expected to be in the town? I would like a concise list so I know exactly what buildings and such are requires (shops, etc.)

More importantly, at least for Fluffi and I...

2) Are we actually expected to use CinematX or anything other than Vanilla? I asked for the town spot, what, a year and a half ago under the assumption that I'd be using basically vanilla SMBX. I have no desire to put the time into learning anything outside of vanilla. I have too much on my plate as is to justify doing that. If this is an issue, I'm likely gonna have to relinquish my spot. Fluffi also doesn't want to touch CinematX.
There's going to be some lua involved, but how much and whether cinematX in particular will be used seems to be up in the air at the moment. The best way to approach it at this point would probably be to do the vanilla stuff in a manner that can accommodate added lua but will work without it, then depending on what lua-based features make the cut we'll collaborate with y'all to get the code side implemented.

For the features we'd been planning we have this post as well as this post and the following posts on that page to use as guidelines. Some other notes:

For shop inclusion:
- The leek sanctuary's insertion will be mostly automated, so you can just set aside a section and include a storefront (whether that be a full building or just a door/warp/pipe with space for a sign nearby). Same goes for the catllama stables, though a stable may not even be necessary if the majority of levels in the world filter out catllamas.
- For powerup and costume shops, give them their own section(s) with a bit of space for the blocks/other purchasing objects, and a flexible enough layout to expand or shrink the space if necessary.
- If you want to do unique variations like a run-down leek sanctuary or combo shops like outdoor markets/bazaars, department stores, etc., those kinds of things can be arranged but the space/layouts need to be planned accordingly
- Plan for things that can take the place of the storefronts/shops, just in case

Also ideal, but not strictly required and/or are currently uncertain:
- A minigame: can be done through mostly vanilla means, let us know if you need lua written for things like scorekeeping or rewards.
- Sidequests: preferably 2 or 3 per world. Will be triggered and ended via interacting with specific NPCs/objects, use a placeholder collectible for the reward. The activities can be done through vanilla event/layer shenanigans and we'll handle the progress tracking, lua-specific rewards and other code stuff.

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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby Hoeloe » 11 months ago

SAJewers wrote:No, pretty much everything you said is what people wanted to avoid.
Sure? But my point is that the CAUSE isn't related to A2XT's system so much as everything else that's going on around it.

Regardless, as I've said many times, the best way to combat this isn't to just slap a deadline on things - that's a surefire way to end up with a broken mess like A2MT was.

Instead, we just need to clarify what's actually happening, as I think there's a bit of general confusion as to what the plan is. Rocky's post is a good start on that, but if anything is unclear there, then we can expand on it.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby freakin whatzit » 11 months ago

hey, i know i have nothing to do with this project, but having followed both this and a2mt, i can definitely tell that this project isn't even remotely going the way a2mt did. a2mt's situation was that all the talented people simply lost interest because management (and more to the point, direction) kept changing. meanwhile, a2xt's situation is that most of the talented people are preoccupied with other things, but they're still interested. sometimes, situations beyond their control make things slow down.

anyway, i don't think just changing direction and telling everyone to stop working on what they are is going to make things better. it'll just cause them to be demoralized and then they really will lose interest. changing direction so far in development has a way of doing that.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby Hoeloe » 11 months ago

freakin whatzit wrote:hey, i know i have nothing to do with this project, but having followed both this and a2mt, i can definitely tell that this project isn't even remotely going the way a2mt did. a2mt's situation was that all the talented people simply lost interest because management (and more to the point, direction) kept changing. meanwhile, a2xt's situation is that most of the talented people are preoccupied with other things, but they're still interested. sometimes, situations beyond their control make things slow down.

anyway, i don't think just changing direction and telling everyone to stop working on what they are is going to make things better. it'll just cause them to be demoralized and then they really will lose interest. changing direction so far in development has a way of doing that.
This was a way more succinct way of saying what I've been trying to get across. Apologies for being so loquacious, I'm pretty tired and it's hard to get my thoughts straight.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby SAJewers » 11 months ago

Hoeloe wrote:
SAJewers wrote:No, pretty much everything you said is what people wanted to avoid.
Sure? But my point is that the CAUSE isn't related to A2XT's system so much as everything else that's going on around it.
The cause may not be related to the system, but that doesn't change the fact that we're sorta in a spot that people agreed on from the start we shouldn't be in.
freakin whatzit wrote:hey, i know i have nothing to do with this project, but having followed both this and a2mt, i can definitely tell that this project isn't even remotely going the way a2mt did. a2mt's situation was that all the talented people simply lost interest because management (and more to the point, direction) kept changing. meanwhile, a2xt's situation is that most of the talented people are preoccupied with other things, but they're still interested. sometimes, situations beyond their control make things slow down.

anyway, i don't think just changing direction and telling everyone to stop working on what they are is going to make things better. it'll just cause them to be demoralized and then they really will lose interest. changing direction so far in development has a way of doing that.
I wouldn't say we're changing direction, moreso trying to enforce something that we agreed on from the start, which is that nothing should be set in stone as part of the game until it is 100% finished. The reasoning for that was not because of fears of ending up like A2MT, but because we wanted to be the exact opposite of A2MT in everything we did: no claiming of anything, no theoretical ideas, just what people happen to make and use.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby Hoeloe » 11 months ago

SAJewers wrote: I wouldn't say we're changing direction, moreso trying to enforce something that we agreed on from the start, which is that nothing should be set in stone as part of the game until it is 100% finished. The reasoning for that was not because of fears of ending up like A2MT, but because we wanted to be the exact opposite of A2MT in everything we did: no claiming of anything, no theoretical ideas, just what people happen to make and use.
Except that's a REALLY dangerous design philosophy. Sure, it's definitely worth leaving it open towards the start of development, but you literally cannot do that at this point. Take quests for example, as those are a current topic of discussion. At the moment quests are sort of a "eh, maybe?" thing, but I have a semi-complete one in the works in the W3 town. The trouble with this is that, because no-one knows whether they're actually going to be there or not, no-one is making them because they don't want to waste the work if they're just going to be cut. And having just one quest in the game will really break the flow.

Leaving things open when there's little plan or knowledge of how things will go is one thing, not planning the final stages of a project is how you kill it utterly. I didn't want to play this card, but I literally work in game development. I work with this sort of thing every day, and PLEASE believe me that you CANNOT make a game by saying "eh, just throw it in when it's done". If we don't lock features, saying: "no, this is what we are working towards", EVEN IF THEY HAVE TO BE CUT LATER, you will just end up expanding the scope as people try to make all sorts of stuff, because there's no plan as to what they SHOULD be working on.

This mentality is why there's a new feature suggestion every other day, and why nothing seems to be getting done - there's no aim, there's no notion of what "done" is. A project NEEDS that in order to work.

Also, you keep saying that "everyone agreed", but the start of development was a long time ago. Different people are working on it now, and with a much different design philosophy from the one that was set out at the end of Ep1. From what I've seen, most people seem to be in agreement that we need some sort of structure, rather than just blindly creating and slapping it together arbitrarily.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby SAJewers » 11 months ago

Hoeloe wrote: At the moment quests are sort of a "eh, maybe?" thing, but I have a semi-complete one in the works in the W3 town. The trouble with this is that, because no-one knows whether they're actually going to be there or not, no-one is making them because they don't want to waste the work if they're just going to be cut. And having just one quest in the game will really break the flow.
And that's why agreed on what we agreed on. If someone had an idea, they needed to make it first, then people could decide to make things around it if they so desired.

The problem is that ideas were accepted before someone had actually made the thing up and got it in people's hands, and that's what I want to avoid in the future. I'm fine with letting this slide now, but I want to try and make sure this doesn't happen again in the future, because that's not what we agreed to do.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby Hoeloe » 11 months ago

SAJewers wrote: The problem is that ideas were accepted before someone had actually made the thing up and got it in people's hands, and that's what I want to avoid in the future. I'm fine with letting this slide now, but I want to try and make sure this doesn't happen again in the future, because that's not what we agreed to do.
But... this isn't what happened at all. All the features we have planned have at least some implementation, and the problem isn't that ideas were tacked on without implementation, but that there was no PLAN for how everything should be put together, because no-one has drawn one up yet. All the features have some form of implementation, and the very reason they were agreed upon before being finished was to allow people to do things like make towns before, for example, all the leek pillar sanctuary code was completely in place. The problem is that there was never a resource to tell people how to account for these features when making their content (for this example, towns should leave a section free for the leek pillar sanctuary).

The problem with the philosophy of "make it first, then let other people make stuff around it" is that a lot of these require some pretty complex code to work. They WILL work, but the implementation is very intricate and lengthy. I for one wouldn't have wanted to stall all the level designs to wait for the raocoin counter to be completely finished, for example, but rather have a basic and cursory implementation in place, and let it be finished and fixed while other things are happening.

Also, you keep saying "we agreed", but literally NO-ONE I have spoken to, other than you, has ever agreed to this. The development team for episode 2 has changed a lot since the start, and I know I certainly didn't agree to it, and most of the other major developers have no clue what you're referring to, from what I've seen on the Skype chat.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby SAJewers » 11 months ago

Hoeloe wrote:
SAJewers wrote: The problem is that ideas were accepted before someone had actually made the thing up and got it in people's hands, and that's what I want to avoid in the future. I'm fine with letting this slide now, but I want to try and make sure this doesn't happen again in the future, because that's not what we agreed to do.
But... this isn't what happened at all. All the features we have planned have at least some implementation, and the problem isn't that ideas were tacked on without implementation, but that there was no PLAN for how everything should be put together.

Also, you keep saying "we agreed", but literally NO-ONE I have spoken to, other than you, has ever agreed to this. The development team for episode 2 has changed a lot since the start, and I know I certainly didn't agree to it, and most of the other major developers have no clue what you're referring to, from what I've seen on the Skype chat.
This was a thing that was decided/agreed on back during ASMBXT, and people felt should continue moving forward for all of A2XT.

As for plan, unless I"m misunderstanding you, it should be that someone makes it, and then people work with that person to implement that idea, if they so desire, in a way that both people are ok with.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby Hoeloe » 11 months ago

SAJewers wrote: This was a thing that was decided/agreed on back during ASMBXT, and people felt should continue moving forward for all of A2XT.
And this is my problem. You have to remember that there are almost NO members of that development team left working on the project. The design philosophy is VERY different now from what it was then, and agreements made there stopped being valid once it was decided, months ago, to replace the story and design teams with new people.
SAJewers wrote: As for plan, unless I"m misunderstanding you, it should be that someone makes it, and then people work with that person to implement that idea, if they so desire, in a way that both people are ok with.
Essentially all we need to do is decide on the key features of the game (things like quests, collectible cards, etc.), then agree that these and only these are what will be implemented in the final game. Then, once we have a feature set, we can set up a structure for towns (such as containing 1-2 quests, 2-3 cards, etc. ), and with that in place, we then have a guideline for how to build the remaining pieces of the game that are missing, which can be posted up in an easy-to-locate place on the forums.

The issue at the moment is simply that no-one knows what to do, especially when it comes to towns, so people are just doing nothing. A solid plan is needed to give some direction and, importantly, give an indication as to what "done" is, rather than imposing an arbitrary deadline like ep1 did, which is arguably one of the major reasons it ended up being such a mess.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby Rockythechao » 11 months ago

Something else of note, going forward we'll mostly be refining the current tech rather than continuing to add to it. cinematX has pretty much hit the ceiling in terms of functionality, the rewrite and future versions will be focused on aesthetic improvements and making that existing functionality more organized and user-friendly.

If what we've been working on for Ep. 2 is received well, we'll have established a framework/formula that we can work within, we'll have existing implementations of the tech to use as starting points, and overall things should go a lot smoother for Ep. 3 and 4. If not, we do things differently or scale back.

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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby SAJewers » 11 months ago

Hoeloe wrote:
SAJewers wrote: This was a thing that was decided/agreed on back during ASMBXT, and people felt should continue moving forward for all of A2XT.
And this is my problem. You have to remember that there are almost NO members of that development team left working on the project. The design philosophy is VERY different now from what it was then, and agreements made there stopped being valid once it was decided, months ago, to replace the story and design teams with new people.
See, that's my problem as well. Even though most of the people working on Ep2 is different than in Ep1, that should have stayed as one of the core mantras of the project.
Hoeloe wrote:
SAJewers wrote: As for plan, unless I"m misunderstanding you, it should be that someone makes it, and then people work with that person to implement that idea, if they so desire, in a way that both people are ok with.
Essentially all we need to do is decide on the key features of the game (things like quests, collectible cards, etc.), then agree that these and only these are what will be implemented in the final game. Then, once we have a feature set, we can set up a structure for towns (such as containing 1-2 quests, 2-3 cards, etc. ), and with that in place, we then have a guideline for how to build the remaining pieces of the game that are missing, which can be posted up in an easy-to-locate place on the forums.

The issue at the moment is simply that no-one knows what to do, especially when it comes to towns, so people are just doing nothing. A solid plan is needed to give some direction and, importantly, give an indication as to what "done" is, rather than imposing an arbitrary deadline like ep1 did, which is arguably one of the major reasons it ended up being such a mess.
That should have been done months ago?

Really, I would say just go with what rocky posted earlier, that sounds fine.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby Hoeloe » 11 months ago

SAJewers wrote: See, that's my problem as well. Even though most of the people working on Ep2 is different than in Ep1, that should have stayed as one of the core mantras of the project.
Well, it may be a little bit harsh of me to say, but the dev team for episode 2 has so far proven itself to be vastly more competent than the one for episode 1, and consisting of people with a lot more experience. I'd rather that the people working on it now come to their own agreement, rather than relying on one made by a different development team who made a project that ended up messy and rushed (episode 1), which is exactly what happened some months ago.
SAJewers wrote:That should have been done months ago?

Really, I would say just go with what rocky posted earlier, that sounds fine.
I agree. It should have been done earlier, and the fact that it wasn't is the only problem, it's nothing to do with the development structure, just communication. What Rocky posted earlier has been a sort of informal plan for a while, but it hadn't been formalised and posted on the forums.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby ano0maly » 11 months ago

Like freakin whatzit I kind of stumbled into this thread, but there's one thing I want to say, about just making an ASMT/ASMBXT again.

talkhaus has made an ASMT... how many times now? ASMT, ASMBXT, and part 1 of A2XT. Do we really need another rehash of the same old ASMT? ASMT and ASMBXT were created back when the collaborators were yet inexperienced in making an official talkhaus project, and when the tools were more limited or when people had more limited use of more advanced features. The impression given by A2XT was made quite clear by raocow: this is no longer just an amateur collection of raocow-fan levels, but an indie-ish fangame you can download and play. I don't think we need to backtrack on what A2XT Episode 1 accomplished.

From what I see, I think it's agreeable to have both a feature-lock and some soft deadlines on certain things.

As for the sidequests, the way I feel is if we have those short levels now, or even concrete ideas planned out for them already, those could become these sidequests. But suddenly making brand new levels just for the sake of having sidequests seems like last-minute additions to me.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby SAJewers » 11 months ago

Hoeloe wrote:
SAJewers wrote: See, that's my problem as well. Even though most of the people working on Ep2 is different than in Ep1, that should have stayed as one of the core mantras of the project.
Well, it may be a little bit harsh of me to say, but the dev team for episode 2 has so far proven itself to be vastly more competent than the one for episode 1, and consisting of people with a lot more experience. I'd rather that the people working on it now come to their own agreement, rather than relying on one made by a different development team who made a project that ended up messy and rushed (episode 1), which is exactly what happened some months ago.
It wasn't because of that, it was because people like Septentrion and Dr Shemp insisted on making the Ep1 the best SMBX thing ever to vindicate themselves, and show up people like MrDeePay who though the talkhaus could never actually make something good, while Darkychao and Demolition kept stalling and being secretive about their work. This despite people saying that ASMBXT was fine, and we just needed to do the same thing, but higher quality levels, and an OW; some who left the project because of it. Those guys didn't want that mantra, despite the objections of others, and they won out, even though most wanted that to stay.

ASMBXT failed where it did because everyone was unsure of things, such as difficulty and testing, what things in levels should change. A2XT Ep1 failed where it did because Some people wanted to prove others wrong.
ano0maly wrote:The impression given by A2XT was made quite clear by raocow: this is no longer just an amateur collection of raocow-fan levels, but an indie-ish fangame you can download and play.
That's really only because guys like Septentrion and Shemp wanted it to be that way, with most being ok with "ASMBXT, but better".
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby Hoeloe » 11 months ago

SAJewers wrote:
ano0maly wrote:The impression given by A2XT was made quite clear by raocow: this is no longer just an amateur collection of raocow-fan levels, but an indie-ish fangame you can download and play.
That's really only because guys like Septentrion and Shemp wanted it to be that way, with most being ok with "ASMBXT, but better".
I don't know where you get "most" from, but literally no-one I've spoken to prefers that idea to making a coherent game out of it.

This is a pointless discussion anyway. Most of the extra content that make it more of a game is already implemented, it just needs some proper organisation to make sure it's properly utilised. This doesn't mean restricting anyone's creations, just that people talk to each other and discuss their ideas as they're making them, rather than working in isolation.
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Re: Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

Postby SAJewers » 11 months ago

Hoeloe wrote:
SAJewers wrote:
ano0maly wrote:The impression given by A2XT was made quite clear by raocow: this is no longer just an amateur collection of raocow-fan levels, but an indie-ish fangame you can download and play.
That's really only because guys like Septentrion and Shemp wanted it to be that way, with most being ok with "ASMBXT, but better".
I don't know where you get "most" from, but literally no-one I've spoken to prefers that idea to making a coherent game out of it.
Most of the people who were around during the start of Ep1 development.
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