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Episode 2 Discussion Thread

The second SMBX collab!

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Poll ended at 1 year ago

A Super Mario Bros X Thing Episode 3 (PTTS = Ep1)
0
No votes
A Super Mario Bros X Thing Episode 2 (PTTS = Ep0)
1
7%
A Second Mario Bros X Thing Episode 2
11
73%
A Third Mario Bros X Thing
3
20%
 
Total votes: 15

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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby SAJewers » 1 year ago

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:the level currently going right-to-left (when most levels go left-to-right)
I don't think this is that big an issue, especially since my level makes the player face left as a subtle indication that he/she has to go that way, and most other levels will have the player on the left facing right as an indication that the player will have to go the other way. It will let players know that both types of levels are possibilities right from the start, especially players who are used to traditional Mario side-scrollers.
Then you're teaching players to expect going left-to-right.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:There's nothing on coins, lives, powerups.
Do any of the Mario games have anything on them, like, at all? Especially lives: they're always placed in difficult to reach, or at least out-of-the-way, locations, like I did with the 3-up in my level. I guess I can place a coin trail and carrot at the start, though I don't think it would hurt to save higher-tier power-ups for another character's tutorial level.
SMB1 1-1. The first first powerup was an essential part of that. Or even 1-1 of SMB3 (EDIT: http://www.significant-bits.com/super-m ... gn-lessons ). SMW YI1 had a life combo right at the start (the koopas)
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:There's nothing on how fairy mode works (as in flight mechanics),
Scenario: You're playing a side-scrolling platformer, when suddenly your character falls down a shaft, collides with a thing, and suddenly transforms into a character with wings and stops falling. Keep in mind you never lose control of the player during this.

What I'm trying to say is that flight mechanics in any side-scroller where doing nothing doesn't cause you to fall always control the same, and even players unfamiliar with this control setup will be able to figure out what to do easily due to the fact that the character stops falling. It's intuitive enough that I don't really have to do anything except force the player to become a fairy.

The most I might have to do is lower the left wall so players won't accidentally fly into the lava when experimenting with the flight mechanics, but really, that's about it.
I'm talking flying with the leaf powerup.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:how basic attacking as Sheath works.
Not only is that activated by literally a single button push, but the second flashback in the opening shows Sheath performing that attack to break a glass wall. Now that I think about it, I could add a glass wall at the start to force the player to [figure out how to] attack with Sheath; maybe even add the Ep. 1 keyboard as an extra measure.
doesn't matter if it's one button, it still needs to be taught that you can press a button as Sheath to kill certain enemies.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:One could also argue that visual signage is a bad way to show the player how to do things.
Is there a better way that doesn't involve flat out telling the player what he/she has to do via text? I think that's something we'd all like to avoid.
That's why I brought it up. Don't use text, and don't use visual pictures, use the environment. Watch that Megaman X video if you haven't, it shows how that game does it well.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:use lua saving stuff over inflating the leek counter with 8 or 9 leeks.
I don't know; I think teaching the player about leeks early on is a good idea. Not only will the player see that they add to a total on the HUD, but if the player dies, he/she will see that they were saved on death, and will know that another level that has leeks won't require you to beat the level again to keep them.
For 1 leek, sure, but not for 8 or 9.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:Also, there's almost certainly better music we could use.
Yeah...I kinda built the level around the original Shades, as I wanted another subtle callback to Episode 1. The decision to use Mordi's remix was solely so I knew that it wouldn't trigger content ID. I have plans to look for a better fitting remix, though I'm not finding much so far.[/spoiler]
Just forget that idea, and find some other song.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby Imaynotbehere4long » 1 year ago

Keep in mind I assume that, after my level, there will be other tutorial levels for other characters that also go further into how SMBX operates, maybe with cut-scenes between them.
SAJewers wrote:
Then you're teaching players to expect going left-to-right.

I don't see the problem with having one level make the player go one way and the very next one make the player go the other way; it will teach newcomers that levels can go both ways and traditional Mario fans that not all levels will go left-to-right. Sure, my level will make newcomers think that all levels will go that way initially, but when the next level has the player on the left facing right, he/she will easily be able to figure out that he/she has to go to the right this time and that levels aren't limited to going in one direction.

SAJewers wrote:
SMB1 1-1. The first first powerup was an essential part of that. Or even 1-1 of SMB3 (EDIT: http://www.significant-bits.com/super-m ... gn-lessons ). SMW YI1 had a life combo right at the start (the koopas)

Oh; I thought you were referring to second-tier power-ups, stand-alone coins, and 1-up mushrooms. I still stand by the fact that the 1-ups are meant to be bonuses for those who can find them (did you notice that you can get a life combo in Section 12?), but I have changed the level to include a coin trail and a ? block at the starting screen, among other stuff you mentioned. I'll upload the update soon.

Also, it's Yoshi's Island 2 you're thinking of.

SAJewers wrote:
I'm talking flying with the leaf powerup.

I don't see why we can't save second-tier power-ups for another character's tutorial level. After all, SMW didn't introduce the feather cape until World 2; we can introduce flying, etc. in the second tutorial level.

SAJewers wrote:
That's why I brought it up. Don't use text, and don't use visual pictures, use the environment. Watch that Megaman X video if you haven't, it shows how that game does it well.

To be fair, there are some things that are impossible (if not, nearly impossible) to teach that way (example: SMW tells the player how to hold shells and throw them upward, Zelda II tells the player "When you jump press downward to stab" when the down-thrust is unlocked, etc.). Sure, Mega Man X's intro stage does a good job at teaching the player how to play Mega Man X, but all of X's moves only require one button, and each button is reserved for one move (with the possible exception of wall-jumping, but that game gives the player a visual clue that SMBX just doesn't have for down-thrusting spikes, etc.).

I understand your ambition, but some of this simply isn't feasible. If it can be done, please show me how.

I'd also like to point out that Mega Man X used visuals, not the environment, to show the player how to charge shots.

SAJewers wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:use lua saving stuff over inflating the leek counter with 8 or 9 leeks.
I don't know; I think teaching the player about leeks early on is a good idea. Not only will the player see that they add to a total on the HUD, but if the player dies, he/she will see that they were saved on death, and will know that another level that has leeks won't require you to beat the level again to keep them.
For 1 leek, sure, but not for 8 or 9.
Going to be honest: I still don't understand what the long-term negative effect of having 8 leeks in the first level is. Please explain.

The way I see it, the greater the amount of leeks, the greater chance of first-time players noticing a number on the HUD appear/increase, and by extension, noticing that leeks are a permanent collectible. After the level, it shouldn't take long for the player to notice that leeks become scarce in the main game and are used for unlockables. On the developer's side, all you have to do is compensate for the additional leeks (e.g., 9 for the first unlockable, etc.).[/spoiler]
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby Pyro » 1 year ago

How about we just start the game in the alternate reality, where there's the picnic and everything? Then we can have a level specifically built to tutorialize Demo, Iris, Kood, and raocow. After you beat that level, it cuts to Post Production Void. That way, PPV can get by on minimal changes and we can still have a good, well-designed tutorial.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby SAJewers » 1 year ago

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
I don't see the problem with having one level make the player go one way and the very next one make the player go the other way; it will teach newcomers that levels can go both ways and traditional Mario fans that not all levels will go left-to-right. Sure, my level will make newcomers think that all levels will go that way initially, but when the next level has the player on the left facing right, he/she will easily be able to figure out that he/she has to go to the right this time and that levels aren't limited to going in one direction.
I think it's bad from a tutorial standpoint to start on the right if virtually all levels start on the left.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote: I don't see why we can't save second-tier power-ups for another character's tutorial level. After all, SMW didn't introduce the feather cape until World 2; we can introduce flying, etc. in the second tutorial level.
Because Sheath's powerups are different, and that distinction 100% needs to be made. Just because you've learned what the leaf does as Demo doesn't mean you know how to use it as Kood or Sheath.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote: To be fair, there are some things that are impossible (if not, nearly impossible) to teach that way (example: SMW tells the player how to hold shells and throw them upward, Zelda II tells the player "When you jump press downward to stab" when the down-thrust is unlocked, etc.). Sure, Mega Man X's intro stage does a good job at teaching the player how to play Mega Man X, but all of X's moves only require one button, and each button is reserved for one move (with the possible exception of wall-jumping, but that game gives the player a visual clue that SMBX just doesn't have for down-thrusting spikes, etc.).

I understand your ambition, but some of this simply isn't feasible. If it can be done, please show me how.

I'd also like to point out that Mega Man X used visuals, not the environment, to show the player how to charge shots.
And that's your job as the level designer: to teach the concepts to the player. You have events and lua at your disposal, there should be zero reason why you can't teach a concept without telling the player. If you can't, give it to someone else, and let them try.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote: Going to be honest: I still don't understand what the long-term negative effect of having 8 leeks in the first level is. Please explain.

The way I see it, the greater the amount of leeks, the greater chance of first-time players noticing a number on the HUD appear/increase, and by extension, noticing that leeks are a permanent collectible. After the level, it shouldn't take long for the player to notice that leeks become scarce in the main game and are used for unlockables. On the developer's side, all you have to do is compensate for the additional leeks (e.g., 9 for the first unlockable, etc.).[/spoiler]
You shouldn't need to teach the concept more than once unless you're extending a prior teaching element or changing up what was taught. Using 8 leeks to teach 1 concept is too much IMO. Also, leeks are probably not being used as unlockables.
Pyro wrote:How about we just start the game in the alternate reality, where there's the picnic and everything? Then we can have a level specifically built to tutorialize Demo, Iris, Kood, and raocow. After you beat that level, it cuts to Post Production Void. That way, PPV can get by on minimal changes and we can still have a good, well-designed tutorial.
If people want to go that route, that's fine, but that doesn't change the fact that PPV still needs work to be a well-designed tutorial for Sheath.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby ano0maly » 1 year ago

SAJewers wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote: To be fair, there are some things that are impossible (if not, nearly impossible) to teach that way (example: SMW tells the player how to hold shells and throw them upward, Zelda II tells the player "When you jump press downward to stab" when the down-thrust is unlocked, etc.). Sure, Mega Man X's intro stage does a good job at teaching the player how to play Mega Man X, but all of X's moves only require one button, and each button is reserved for one move (with the possible exception of wall-jumping, but that game gives the player a visual clue that SMBX just doesn't have for down-thrusting spikes, etc.).

I understand your ambition, but some of this simply isn't feasible. If it can be done, please show me how.

I'd also like to point out that Mega Man X used visuals, not the environment, to show the player how to charge shots.
And that's your job as the level designer: to teach the concepts to the player. You have events and lua at your disposal, there should be zero reason why you can't teach a concept without telling the player. If you can't, give it to someone else, and let them try.
I understand your ambition, but some of this simply isn't feasible. If it can be done, please show me how.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby Hoeloe » 1 year ago

I've volunteered on the Skype chat to make a short tutorial. I've done level design professionally and have some experience of this kind of thing. You can teach complex mechanics through gameplay alone - it just takes some care and planning. Portal, for example, is almost entirely tutorial. If you've never done it before it can be difficult to see how, which is why I wanted to make a short level to show this.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby Imaynotbehere4long » 1 year ago

Actually, I think I figured out how to introduce down-thrusting spikes, etc. through the environment alone. I also have an idea to have the level start with a short section or two that makes the player go right first before transitioning to the main level where he/she has to go left (hopefully, that will be enough to let SAJewers give it a pass in that regard).

As for the Super Leeks being SMW stars:
SAJewers wrote:leeks
While I agree that teaching a concept more than once can be redundant, that's not exactly what the level is doing; it's teaching the player not only that leeks are a collectible, but also that there can be multiple leeks hidden in one level. Sure, you could argue that 8 leeks is still redundant in that regard, but since Super Leeks count as leeks in the main game, it would be best to stay consistent. Plus, it shouldn't be too difficult to let the player know that leeks are normally rare and that my level just takes place where Super Leeks had to be in abundance to power the reality stabilizer (in fact, I might be able to do that myself).

So yeah, I still see no downside to having the Super Leeks be SMW stars.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby SAJewers » 1 year ago

Regardless, I don't want to see a level with tons of leeks that can't justify itself over lua saving or multipoints.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby Imaynotbehere4long » 1 year ago

Is consistency really not a good enough justification? I'd think that introducing leeks that don't count toward the total when all the other levels' leeks do would be confusing.

This is on top of the fact that the level would be introducing leeks as a collectible and would be showing that more than one can be in a level.

E:
SAJewers wrote:ping
Okay, my original idea for having the player start on the left won't quite work. Is it okay if I put the intro cut-scene in its own level and have it lead to the level part of the level via a warp?

E2: Darn, I just missed you. Hopefully you'll see this.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby SAJewers » 1 year ago

Yes. Super leeks probably won't be counted as leeks in Ep1. They only "counted" because it was the only way at the time to check if someone already beat the level. Now we have lua saving, so we won't need to count them as super leeks.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby WasabiJellyfish » 1 year ago

SAJewers wrote:Yes. Super leeks probably won't be counted as leeks in Ep1. They only "counted" because it was the only way at the time to check if someone already beat the level. Now we have lua saving, so we won't need to count them as super leeks.
I think Super Leeks should count depending on how the world map is set up. Mainly because in most other games the end of world stars/collectibles do count towards the count so it seems weird to not have them do so. Especially since they ARE leeks as well? Like if it was something else like a sunflower or something I don't think it would need to, but they are leeks.

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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby ohmato » 1 year ago

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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby SAJewers » 1 year ago

Just wanted put this out there, but I'm aiming for starting development of the towns, cutscenes, OW, etc., once MaGLX2 ends.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby docopoper » 1 year ago

I might try and do a bonus game where you race Calleoca for a high score if I get time over Christmas (as opposed to a boss fight). Sorry for being so desynchronised with the submission schedule, life is doing all the things right now. *crosses fingers*
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby WasabiJellyfish » 1 year ago

Here's a little test/draft/whatever of a potential cutscene with Uncle Rewind and the Krew, not sure where else to put it:




This does not have any bearing on anything I just made it to show off a little cinematX stuff

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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby docopoper » 1 year ago

WasabiJellyfish wrote:Here's a little test/draft/whatever of a potential cutscene with Uncle Rewind and the Krew, not sure where else to put it:




This does not have any bearing on anything I just made it to show off a little cinematX stuff
The cutscenes in this game are looking awesome I must say.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby Rockythechao » 1 year ago

docopoper wrote:I might try and do a bonus game where you race Calleoca for a high score if I get time over Christmas (as opposed to a boss fight). Sorry for being so desynchronised with the submission schedule, life is doing all the things right now. *crosses fingers*
So, uh... I just remembered this post. And I realized I'd been working on this exact thing for a while now. >__<




This is the extended race level for the updated cinematX sample episode. Calleoca was just meant to be a placeholder, and while I've mentioned using it as a potential boss in Ep. 2, I was hoping I could keep it for the sample episode. But now I don't know what to do... I'm sorry, I'm really not trying to steal your thunder or anything! I've just been really dense about this :(

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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby docopoper » 1 year ago

Rockythechao wrote:This is the extended race level for the updated cinematX sample episode. Calleoca was just meant to be a placeholder, and while I've mentioned using it as a potential boss in Ep. 2, I was hoping I could keep it for the sample episode. But now I don't know what to do... I'm sorry, I'm really not trying to steal your thunder or anything! I've just been really dense about this :(
Ha. That looks pretty cool. Don't worry, that description of the level I want to make was just a simplification. My actual idea is to record how every player runs through the level, upload it to a server and have players race against ghosts of each other. Racing an AI is a substantially different thing.

I am totally in favour of your level, even if they existed in the same game (or if they don't).
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby SAJewers » 1 year ago

Gonna stream, planning on playing all the levels in Worlds 1 and 2.

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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby Heraga » 1 year ago

Would I be allowed to use custom music and GFX from my fangame in a level for this episode?

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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby docopoper » 1 year ago

Definitely, provided YouTube doesn't strike videos as a result of the music you can use whatever you want (within reason obviously). You may notice that the previous episode is full of copyrighted music and graphics.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby docopoper » 1 year ago

At this point I'm certain I won't be able to get a level done for episode 2. Hopefully I'll be back for episode 3. The main problems for me at the moment are:
  • I have very little time this year.
  • I had quite popular levels last episode and feel under personal pressure to upstage them, which is hard :lol:.
  • I feel kind of out of the loop and am not sure where to look to keep up to date with the project. I think episode 1 had this problem too, it's just that I had enough time to remain in the loop for episode 1.
The second point is kind of hypocritical because I insisted quite a few times for us not to try and upstage episode 1. Welp.
Either way, it's still good advice.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby SAJewers » 1 year ago

People care to give an update on levels, who are working on them?
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby raocow » 1 year ago

making my level is a long arduous process as I'm fighting against my creator's block. Is there a formal deadline that we have to submit the first draft for testing? that would probably help me honestly.
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Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Postby SAJewers » 1 year ago

It'd be nice if they got in before the end of January. Maybe we'll set a date of February 10?
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