(shouting)

Episode 2 Discussion Thread

The second SMBX collab!

Name

Poll ended at 8 years ago

A Super Mario Bros X Thing Episode 3 (PTTS = Ep1)
0
No votes
A Super Mario Bros X Thing Episode 2 (PTTS = Ep0)
1
7%
A Second Mario Bros X Thing Episode 2
11
73%
A Third Mario Bros X Thing
3
20%
 
Total votes: 15

WasabiJellyfish
Posts: 117
Joined: 9 years ago

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by WasabiJellyfish »

Yeah give them just the planet names but not prefixed with Planet. Like you could use the scientific name for a redwood or something.
User avatar
pholtos
Loves adorable things.
Posts: 1663
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: One of the States in the Center of the U.S.

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by pholtos »

Place, Area, Domain, Circle, Arena, Province, Realm, Field, Sector

Have a bunch of potential things.
Host and Organizer of the Rando Pokemon Tournaments. Completed: I, II, III, IV, V
Dealer of the Pokermon Discord Tourneys.

ImageImageImageImage
ImageImageImageImage
ImageImageImageImage

I do LPs, check them out if you'd like.

Currently playing:
Image

The 500 char limit is evil. :P
User avatar
Imaynotbehere4long
Gone, but...yeah, pretty much forgotten.
Posts: 289
Joined: 8 years ago

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Imaynotbehere4long »

ztarwuff wrote:Does it have to be a world? Why can't we have one gigantic map with continents linked together. That way if somebody does get trapped in a "world" they don't like because it's too difficult to be fun, they can use the "I'll park where I want" cheat code to escape.
The idea could work, but you should have left out your reasoning. We should try to make the episode good enough so that players won't want to cheat in the first place. Besides, all .wld files are linked anyway, so if a player really wants to, he/she can cheat to skip worlds even in episodes like Analog Funk.
My SMBX portfolio:
Image
(includes a Sonic 3D Blast styled level.)

SOMEONE ANSWER MY CRY FOR HELP: http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... =69&t=2026
User avatar
SAJewers
ASMBXT Level Wrangler/A2XT Project Coordinator /AAT Level Designer
Posts: 4200
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by SAJewers »

There's also the fact that we'll allow players to leave worlds before finishing them this time around, thanks to lua.
ImageImageImageImageImage | Image | Image
Sharenite | RetroAchievements | NameMC | IGDB
Mikkofier
What about Ron magic?
Posts: 699
Joined: 11 years ago
First name: Mikko J. Fuzzygrumbles
Pronouns: he/him/his
Location: Lots of miles from Vietnam
Contact:

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Mikkofier »

Some fancy name suggstions
World 1: Sector Arcadia
World 2: Sector Borealis
World 3: Sector Calanshio
World 4: Sector Denisova
World 5: Sector Eridu
World 6: Sector Fuath
World 7: Sector Gleti
World 8: Sector Huracan
Postgame: Sector Ialdagorth

This is mostly just an excuse to give things fancy names (they're in alphabetical order too, just because). Feel free to ignore.

Many people need desperately to receive this message: I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.
-Kurt Vonnegut
Context-free Supper Mario Broth Roulette! NOTE: Potential Jumpscare warning!
Image
Avatar source (for most of them).
Image
User avatar
ztarwuff
What the heck is a flair and why am I being asked to write one for my profile?
Posts: 550
Joined: 10 years ago
Location: Within 2 miles of the Imperial Crypt of Napoleon III

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by ztarwuff »

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
ztarwuff wrote:Does it have to be a world? Why can't we have one gigantic map with continents linked together. That way if somebody does get trapped in a "world" they don't like because it's too difficult to be fun, they can use the "I'll park where I want" cheat code to escape.
The idea could work, but you should have left out your reasoning. We should try to make the episode good enough so that players won't want to cheat in the first place. Besides, all .wld files are linked anyway, so if a player really wants to, he/she can cheat to skip worlds even in episodes like Analog Funk.
Good point. Still, my other point still stands. Heck, you don't even have to have continents either. Just one big sprawling world map.

Alternatively, here's another idea. Have all the maps really similar and pretend they're all the same world but in different time zones. I mean, our Earth has gone through so many different climates. Ice Ages, the Sahara used to be jungle etc.
User avatar
raocow
the death of the incredible huge
Posts: 4078
Joined: 15 years ago
Location: maybe the Wizards are the most complex, and the sales guys are up their daily
https://raocow.talkhaus.com/

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by raocow »

huh, the same planet through difference instances of time IS kinda interesting and pretty different...
the chillaxest of dragonsImage
Image
Image
User avatar
Imaynotbehere4long
Gone, but...yeah, pretty much forgotten.
Posts: 289
Joined: 8 years ago

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Imaynotbehere4long »

Okay, I have a question I'd like to ask everyone who sees this post, as SAJewers and I are at an impasse once again.

Basically, our disagreement is on how the episode should start. SAJewers thinks that the episode should start with an all-purpose tutorial like this:
SAJewers wrote:Show the controls, then fade into an empty level section where the player can not die. the player has to exit that section, where the main tutorial begins, and the player learns all the basics of smbx.

The tutorial for each character should be somewhat brief and not overstay its welcome at all, while teaching everything that the player will need to know. Whatever character is first has to include tutorial stuff on even the general things of smbx; the most basic stuff has to be in the tutorial area for the first character, while slightly more advanced stuff can be placed in other character's sections.
However, I think that the episode should begin with a level-level that, although the player can still die, is easy enough for first-time players to be able to figure out the controls on his/her own (*cough cough* The Post Production Void *cough cough*). After all, the player would have to know where at least the jump button and movement keys are to be able to navigate the start-up menu and begin the episode in the first place. Maybe we can even have different levels be tutorials for different characters (mine is for Sheath, obviously; someone else can claim one other character, another person could claim two characters for one level, etc.), and such levels would be judged not as general levels, but as tutorial levels for said characters.

Thoughts?
SAJewers wrote:Edit: also, we really shouldn't be talking about stuff like this right now. We should be focusing on making and reviewing levels, until get get a general base of levels to work with.
While I see your point, my idea for the tutorial(s) would fall under "making and reviewing levels," (as said levels could be made by any user; it just has to be accepted) which is why I'd like to go ahead and begin this particular discussion about the tutorial(s).
My SMBX portfolio:
Image
(includes a Sonic 3D Blast styled level.)

SOMEONE ANSWER MY CRY FOR HELP: http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... =69&t=2026
User avatar
SAJewers
ASMBXT Level Wrangler/A2XT Project Coordinator /AAT Level Designer
Posts: 4200
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by SAJewers »

Imaynotbehere4long wrote: While I see your point, my idea for the tutorial(s) would fall under "making and reviewing levels," (as said levels could be made by any user; it just has to be accepted) which is why I'd like to go ahead and begin this particular discussion about the tutorial(s).
And it shouldn't be at all. Any tutorial is very important that it is done right. It should not be just another level. It needs to be carefully crafted to teach the player.
ImageImageImageImageImage | Image | Image
Sharenite | RetroAchievements | NameMC | IGDB
User avatar
Imaynotbehere4long
Gone, but...yeah, pretty much forgotten.
Posts: 289
Joined: 8 years ago

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Imaynotbehere4long »

SAJewers wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote: While I see your point, my idea for the tutorial(s) would fall under "making and reviewing levels," (as said levels could be made by any user; it just has to be accepted) which is why I'd like to go ahead and begin this particular discussion about the tutorial(s).
And it shouldn't be at all. Any tutorial is very important that it is done right. It should not be just another level. It needs to be carefully crafted to teach the player.
Hence my suggestion of the alternate judging criteria; the same criteria that Pyro and WestonSmith used to judge my level (I assume). The level creator could put "tutorial for [character]" in the Restrictions slot so judges would know to judge it as a tutorial and not just another level.
My SMBX portfolio:
Image
(includes a Sonic 3D Blast styled level.)

SOMEONE ANSWER MY CRY FOR HELP: http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... =69&t=2026
User avatar
SAJewers
ASMBXT Level Wrangler/A2XT Project Coordinator /AAT Level Designer
Posts: 4200
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by SAJewers »

It wouldn't need judging criteria. It would go in once everyone was happy with it.
ImageImageImageImageImage | Image | Image
Sharenite | RetroAchievements | NameMC | IGDB
User avatar
ztarwuff
What the heck is a flair and why am I being asked to write one for my profile?
Posts: 550
Joined: 10 years ago
Location: Within 2 miles of the Imperial Crypt of Napoleon III

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by ztarwuff »

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:Maybe we can even have different levels be tutorials for different characters (mine is for Sheath, obviously; someone else can claim one other character, another person could claim two characters for one level, etc.), and such levels would be judged not as general levels, but as tutorial levels for said characters.

Thoughts?
Well, my suggestion was to have different levels. In a single level, you have to cram five different characters into something small. It gets rushed.

If you have a single level, you can devote time to each character. Plus it feels less like a tutorial.

Mind you, remember how I brought up my level, MAKL Vanilla, as an example? Well, I never designed that as a tutorial. I set out to create a vanilla asset level that utilised Kood's mechanics. So, the thing that we should be doing is looking through the levels submitted and seeing which ones make the best tutorial levels. If none fit the criteria, then make some. If something fits the criteria, try to tailor it to fit in with the beginning.
User avatar
Imaynotbehere4long
Gone, but...yeah, pretty much forgotten.
Posts: 289
Joined: 8 years ago

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Imaynotbehere4long »

ztarwuff wrote:Mind you, remember how I brought up my level, MAKL Vanilla, as an example? Well, I never designed that as a tutorial. I set out to create a vanilla asset level that utilised Kood's mechanics. So, the thing that we should be doing is looking through the levels submitted and seeing which ones make the best tutorial levels.
I'm open to that idea, though that would be reliant on the judges' willingness to comb through the levels looking for something that could work as a tutorial for each character.
ztarwuff wrote:If none fit the criteria, then make some.
My idea was more "if none fit the criteria, mention it to the Talkhaus and see if anyone wants to make one. If so, then judge the tutorial levels accordingly; if not, then make some." After all, some nobody might be able to do a better job than the project leads or veterans; you never know.
ztarwuff wrote:If something fits the criteria, try to tailor it to fit in with the beginning.
You'd probably have to contact the level's creator for permission to turn said levels into tutorials. Some people might not want their levels to be tutorials while others would be more than happy to give it a go.

Some of my hypothetical situations might not occur, but it's always a good idea to be certain about these things. Like I said, I am open to the idea.
My SMBX portfolio:
Image
(includes a Sonic 3D Blast styled level.)

SOMEONE ANSWER MY CRY FOR HELP: http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... =69&t=2026
User avatar
SAJewers
ASMBXT Level Wrangler/A2XT Project Coordinator /AAT Level Designer
Posts: 4200
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by SAJewers »

To answer your question, I'm not sure there are any that would fit. Maybe Frolic, with tweaking, but otherwise, no.
ImageImageImageImageImage | Image | Image
Sharenite | RetroAchievements | NameMC | IGDB
User avatar
docopoper
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Nulla non pharetra enim, nec maximus odio.
Posts: 78
Joined: 12 years ago
First name: Shane Farrell
Pronouns: they/he
Location: Ireland

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by docopoper »

If you're looking for inspiration for a good tutorial look at Shovel Knight's first level, it pulls of the "secretly a tutorial" thing really well.
The first thing I would do with infinite power would be to make myself a cave where I could look at my shadow forever.

Image <- Go team Yeah Doctor Shemp.!
Image <- That's everyone being nice to me. ^^

I made a game called Utter Confusion! Play it! :D
It's a lot of fun and has been incredibly popular at every indie game dev party I've brought it to.
User avatar
Hoeloe
A2XT person
Posts: 1016
Joined: 12 years ago
Pronouns: she/her
Location: Spaaace

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Hoeloe »

docopoper wrote:If you're looking for inspiration for a good tutorial look at Shovel Knight's first level, it pulls of the "secretly a tutorial" thing really well.
I also want to point out that SMB World 1-1 is also a tutorial. It's often used as an example in the industry of an ideal tutorial level. There are studies and papers written about it because of this fact.

Here's a neat video that summarises a small section of the level and how it teaches the player (pretty much everything said in this video was confirmed by the level designers). If at all possible, we should aim for this style of tutorial (Megaman X's intro stage also does an amazing job), as it's much more fun for the player than a "press Z to jump" type tutorial, and is often more effective.


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Rixithechao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BODxOghVmko
Posts: 1812
Joined: 10 years ago
First name: Mack
https://rixithechao.talkhaus.com/

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Rixithechao »

OH MAN, CONVEYANCE and dagnabbit Hoeloe you dastardly ninja fiend you



Heck, it's probably in everyone's best interest to go re-watch all the videos in the level design-related threads.

But yeah, I don't see why imay's level couldn't be the first of five character-specific tutorial levels. Not saying we have to or should do that (I've already proposed a bunch of other ways the level could be used in the game over in the story thread), but here's one way we can make it work.

1 - Keep the scrolling intro text, it's neato. Just make sure it only happens once per new game, whether that be via a midpoint or lua or whatever.
2 - The very next screen the player sees should have visible key prompts. Just, like, floating arrow keys and the jump key via Graphics.loadImage() and Graphics.drawImageToScene (). No text, just the main movement buttons.
3 - More Lua shenanigans to make the level safer without necessarily removing the illusion of danger. Maybe keep death in but prevent it from having larger consequences.
4 - Make other levels that teach the other characters' abilities; ideally these wouldn't re-teach concepts the player already learned through PPV but still highlight the differences between characters' physics and mechanics.
5 - insert several question marks here because you all know what's coming next
6 - Profit
Delightful Adventure Enhanced is out now!

Image

There's an official ASMT Discord server! Check it out to discuss Demo games and follow their development! thread, invite link

(Entry requires verification, either with a connected Youtube/Twitter/Twitch/etc account or manually by the server staff.)


Itch.io (albums and eventually games), Youtube (dofur pass and I guess other videos)
User avatar
Imaynotbehere4long
Gone, but...yeah, pretty much forgotten.
Posts: 289
Joined: 8 years ago

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Imaynotbehere4long »

Rockythechao wrote:1 - Keep the scrolling intro text, it's neato. Just make sure it only happens once per new game, whether that be via a midpoint or lua or whatever.
Well, I already have a checkpoint do that, and I have a restriction to make the level inaccessible after it's beaten, so I'd say that box is checked.
Rockythechao wrote:2 - The very next screen the player sees should have visible key prompts. Just, like, floating arrow keys and the jump key via Graphics.loadImage() and Graphics.drawImageToScene (). No text, just the main movement buttons.
Or I could just, you know, use the keyboard graphic from Episode 1's tutorial (or a similar sprite); no Lua necessary. It wouldn't be too much trouble for me to add that if I had to.
Rockythechao wrote:3 - More Lua shenanigans to make the level safer without necessarily removing the illusion of danger. Maybe keep death in but prevent it from having larger consequences.
But I already save Super Leeks on death by virtue of them being SMW stars; what more do you want?
Rockythechao wrote:4 - Make other levels that teach the other characters' abilities; ideally these wouldn't re-teach concepts the player already learned through PPV but still highlight the differences between characters' physics and mechanics.
Hey, that's basically what I suggested a few posts ago to begin this discussion! It's always nice to see more people come out in support for an idea you have.
My SMBX portfolio:
Image
(includes a Sonic 3D Blast styled level.)

SOMEONE ANSWER MY CRY FOR HELP: http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... =69&t=2026
User avatar
SAJewers
ASMBXT Level Wrangler/A2XT Project Coordinator /AAT Level Designer
Posts: 4200
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by SAJewers »

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
Rockythechao wrote:4 - Make other levels that teach the other characters' abilities; ideally these wouldn't re-teach concepts the player already learned through PPV but still highlight the differences between characters' physics and mechanics.
Hey, that's basically what I suggested a few posts ago to begin this discussion! It's always nice to see more people come out in support for an idea you have.
and that's basically what I said earlier, the tutorial needs to encompass all playable characters, and the first character needs to include basic stuff about smbx. Whether or not it's multiple levels or 1 large level split into sections is irrelevant. what matters is that the player is taught is a cohesive, straightforward manner, and I don't think PPV does that.
ImageImageImageImageImage | Image | Image
Sharenite | RetroAchievements | NameMC | IGDB
User avatar
Imaynotbehere4long
Gone, but...yeah, pretty much forgotten.
Posts: 289
Joined: 8 years ago

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Imaynotbehere4long »

SAJewers wrote:what matters is that the player is taught is a cohesive, straightforward manner, and I don't think PPV does that.
Again, I ask: what do I have to do to accomplish that?
My SMBX portfolio:
Image
(includes a Sonic 3D Blast styled level.)

SOMEONE ANSWER MY CRY FOR HELP: http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... =69&t=2026
User avatar
SAJewers
ASMBXT Level Wrangler/A2XT Project Coordinator /AAT Level Designer
Posts: 4200
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by SAJewers »

The fundamental problem for me is that I don't think it can be done without remaking the entire level from scratch. Things like the level currently going right-to-left (when most levels go left-to-right), or entering other sections in pits (the player should be trained that pits are bad). There's nothing on coins, lives, powerups. There's nothing on how fairy mode works (as in flight mechanics), how climbing stuff works, how basic attacking as Sheath works. One could also argue that visual signage is a bad way to show the player how to do things.

EDIT: Like, with a few changes, PPV could work as a second half "prove your knowledge"-type thing, but I feel it needs a better start, and should probably use lua saving stuff over inflating the leek counter with 8 or 9 leeks. Also, there's almost certainly better music we could use.
ImageImageImageImageImage | Image | Image
Sharenite | RetroAchievements | NameMC | IGDB
User avatar
Imaynotbehere4long
Gone, but...yeah, pretty much forgotten.
Posts: 289
Joined: 8 years ago

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Imaynotbehere4long »

Okay, I've been thinking about what you said, and while I do agree with a few things now that you mention them, I also think you're not giving first-time players enough credit:
SAJewers wrote:
the level currently going right-to-left (when most levels go left-to-right)

I don't think this is that big an issue, especially since my level makes the player face left as a subtle indication that he/she has to go that way, and most other levels will have the player on the left facing right as an indication that the player will have to go the other way. It will let players know that both types of levels are possibilities right from the start, especially players who are used to traditional Mario side-scrollers.

SAJewers wrote:
entering other sections in pits (the player should be trained that pits are bad).

...all right, you got me. I can always replace them with warp pipes, too.

SAJewers wrote:
There's nothing on coins, lives, powerups.

Do any of the Mario games have anything on them, like, at all? Especially lives: they're always placed in difficult to reach, or at least out-of-the-way, locations, like I did with the 3-up in my level. I guess I can place a coin trail and carrot at the start, though I don't think it would hurt to save higher-tier power-ups for another character's tutorial level.

SAJewers wrote:
There's nothing on how fairy mode works (as in flight mechanics),

Scenario: You're playing a side-scrolling platformer, when suddenly your character falls down a shaft, collides with a thing, and suddenly transforms into a character with wings and stops falling. Keep in mind you never lose control of the player during this.

What I'm trying to say is that flight mechanics in any side-scroller where doing nothing doesn't cause you to fall always control the same, and even players unfamiliar with this control setup will be able to figure out what to do easily due to the fact that the character stops falling. It's intuitive enough that I don't really have to do anything except force the player to become a fairy.

The most I might have to do is lower the left wall so players won't accidentally fly into the lava when experimenting with the flight mechanics, but really, that's about it.

SAJewers wrote:
how climbing stuff works,

Funnily enough, when I was making the new sections to get the SMW stars to work properly, I tried to think of ways to let the player go back up without having to jump up blocks, yet ladders never occurred to me. I'll add some.

SAJewers wrote:
how basic attacking as Sheath works.

Not only is that activated by literally a single button push, but the second flashback in the opening shows Sheath performing that attack to break a glass wall. Now that I think about it, I could add a glass wall at the start to force the player to [figure out how to] attack with Sheath; maybe even add the Ep. 1 keyboard as an extra measure.

SAJewers wrote:
One could also argue that visual signage is a bad way to show the player how to do things.

Is there a better way that doesn't involve flat out telling the player what he/she has to do via text? I think that's something we'd all like to avoid.

SAJewers wrote:
use lua saving stuff over inflating the leek counter with 8 or 9 leeks.

I don't know; I think teaching the player about leeks early on is a good idea. Not only will the player see that they add to a total on the HUD, but if the player dies, he/she will see that they were saved on death, and will know that another level that has leeks won't require you to beat the level again to keep them.

SAJewers wrote:
Also, there's almost certainly better music we could use.

Yeah...I kinda built the level around the original Shades, as I wanted another subtle callback to Episode 1. The decision to use Mordi's remix was solely so I knew that it wouldn't trigger content ID. I have plans to look for a better fitting remix, though I'm not finding much so far.
My SMBX portfolio:
Image
(includes a Sonic 3D Blast styled level.)

SOMEONE ANSWER MY CRY FOR HELP: http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... =69&t=2026
User avatar
SAJewers
ASMBXT Level Wrangler/A2XT Project Coordinator /AAT Level Designer
Posts: 4200
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by SAJewers »

Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:the level currently going right-to-left (when most levels go left-to-right)
I don't think this is that big an issue, especially since my level makes the player face left as a subtle indication that he/she has to go that way, and most other levels will have the player on the left facing right as an indication that the player will have to go the other way. It will let players know that both types of levels are possibilities right from the start, especially players who are used to traditional Mario side-scrollers.
Then you're teaching players to expect going left-to-right.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:There's nothing on coins, lives, powerups.
Do any of the Mario games have anything on them, like, at all? Especially lives: they're always placed in difficult to reach, or at least out-of-the-way, locations, like I did with the 3-up in my level. I guess I can place a coin trail and carrot at the start, though I don't think it would hurt to save higher-tier power-ups for another character's tutorial level.
SMB1 1-1. The first first powerup was an essential part of that. Or even 1-1 of SMB3 (EDIT: http://www.significant-bits.com/super-m ... gn-lessons ). SMW YI1 had a life combo right at the start (the koopas)
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:There's nothing on how fairy mode works (as in flight mechanics),
Scenario: You're playing a side-scrolling platformer, when suddenly your character falls down a shaft, collides with a thing, and suddenly transforms into a character with wings and stops falling. Keep in mind you never lose control of the player during this.

What I'm trying to say is that flight mechanics in any side-scroller where doing nothing doesn't cause you to fall always control the same, and even players unfamiliar with this control setup will be able to figure out what to do easily due to the fact that the character stops falling. It's intuitive enough that I don't really have to do anything except force the player to become a fairy.

The most I might have to do is lower the left wall so players won't accidentally fly into the lava when experimenting with the flight mechanics, but really, that's about it.
I'm talking flying with the leaf powerup.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:how basic attacking as Sheath works.
Not only is that activated by literally a single button push, but the second flashback in the opening shows Sheath performing that attack to break a glass wall. Now that I think about it, I could add a glass wall at the start to force the player to [figure out how to] attack with Sheath; maybe even add the Ep. 1 keyboard as an extra measure.
doesn't matter if it's one button, it still needs to be taught that you can press a button as Sheath to kill certain enemies.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:One could also argue that visual signage is a bad way to show the player how to do things.
Is there a better way that doesn't involve flat out telling the player what he/she has to do via text? I think that's something we'd all like to avoid.
That's why I brought it up. Don't use text, and don't use visual pictures, use the environment. Watch that Megaman X video if you haven't, it shows how that game does it well.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:use lua saving stuff over inflating the leek counter with 8 or 9 leeks.
I don't know; I think teaching the player about leeks early on is a good idea. Not only will the player see that they add to a total on the HUD, but if the player dies, he/she will see that they were saved on death, and will know that another level that has leeks won't require you to beat the level again to keep them.
For 1 leek, sure, but not for 8 or 9.
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:Also, there's almost certainly better music we could use.
Yeah...I kinda built the level around the original Shades, as I wanted another subtle callback to Episode 1. The decision to use Mordi's remix was solely so I knew that it wouldn't trigger content ID. I have plans to look for a better fitting remix, though I'm not finding much so far.[/spoiler]
Just forget that idea, and find some other song.
ImageImageImageImageImage | Image | Image
Sharenite | RetroAchievements | NameMC | IGDB
User avatar
Imaynotbehere4long
Gone, but...yeah, pretty much forgotten.
Posts: 289
Joined: 8 years ago

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by Imaynotbehere4long »

Keep in mind I assume that, after my level, there will be other tutorial levels for other characters that also go further into how SMBX operates, maybe with cut-scenes between them.
SAJewers wrote:
Then you're teaching players to expect going left-to-right.

I don't see the problem with having one level make the player go one way and the very next one make the player go the other way; it will teach newcomers that levels can go both ways and traditional Mario fans that not all levels will go left-to-right. Sure, my level will make newcomers think that all levels will go that way initially, but when the next level has the player on the left facing right, he/she will easily be able to figure out that he/she has to go to the right this time and that levels aren't limited to going in one direction.

SAJewers wrote:
SMB1 1-1. The first first powerup was an essential part of that. Or even 1-1 of SMB3 (EDIT: http://www.significant-bits.com/super-m ... gn-lessons ). SMW YI1 had a life combo right at the start (the koopas)

Oh; I thought you were referring to second-tier power-ups, stand-alone coins, and 1-up mushrooms. I still stand by the fact that the 1-ups are meant to be bonuses for those who can find them (did you notice that you can get a life combo in Section 12?), but I have changed the level to include a coin trail and a ? block at the starting screen, among other stuff you mentioned. I'll upload the update soon.

Also, it's Yoshi's Island 2 you're thinking of.

SAJewers wrote:
I'm talking flying with the leaf powerup.

I don't see why we can't save second-tier power-ups for another character's tutorial level. After all, SMW didn't introduce the feather cape until World 2; we can introduce flying, etc. in the second tutorial level.

SAJewers wrote:
That's why I brought it up. Don't use text, and don't use visual pictures, use the environment. Watch that Megaman X video if you haven't, it shows how that game does it well.

To be fair, there are some things that are impossible (if not, nearly impossible) to teach that way (example: SMW tells the player how to hold shells and throw them upward, Zelda II tells the player "When you jump press downward to stab" when the down-thrust is unlocked, etc.). Sure, Mega Man X's intro stage does a good job at teaching the player how to play Mega Man X, but all of X's moves only require one button, and each button is reserved for one move (with the possible exception of wall-jumping, but that game gives the player a visual clue that SMBX just doesn't have for down-thrusting spikes, etc.).

I understand your ambition, but some of this simply isn't feasible. If it can be done, please show me how.

I'd also like to point out that Mega Man X used visuals, not the environment, to show the player how to charge shots.

SAJewers wrote:
Imaynotbehere4long wrote:
SAJewers wrote:use lua saving stuff over inflating the leek counter with 8 or 9 leeks.
I don't know; I think teaching the player about leeks early on is a good idea. Not only will the player see that they add to a total on the HUD, but if the player dies, he/she will see that they were saved on death, and will know that another level that has leeks won't require you to beat the level again to keep them.
For 1 leek, sure, but not for 8 or 9.
Going to be honest: I still don't understand what the long-term negative effect of having 8 leeks in the first level is. Please explain.

The way I see it, the greater the amount of leeks, the greater chance of first-time players noticing a number on the HUD appear/increase, and by extension, noticing that leeks are a permanent collectible. After the level, it shouldn't take long for the player to notice that leeks become scarce in the main game and are used for unlockables. On the developer's side, all you have to do is compensate for the additional leeks (e.g., 9 for the first unlockable, etc.).[/spoiler]
My SMBX portfolio:
Image
(includes a Sonic 3D Blast styled level.)

SOMEONE ANSWER MY CRY FOR HELP: http://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/v ... =69&t=2026
User avatar
snoruntpyro
cutest girl 2023
Posts: 884
Joined: 9 years ago
Pronouns: she/her
Contact:

Re: Episode 2 Discussion Thread

Post by snoruntpyro »

How about we just start the game in the alternate reality, where there's the picnic and everything? Then we can have a level specifically built to tutorialize Demo, Iris, Kood, and raocow. After you beat that level, it cuts to Post Production Void. That way, PPV can get by on minimal changes and we can still have a good, well-designed tutorial.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Post Reply