A2XT: It's Over

[raocow]

I took care of the cave's second leek, but thanks for the head's up re: the sibbling capsule having a secret exit leading to a unique level + main exit finishing the world, I'll keep that in mind.

[Crow]

I won't argue that from a design standpoint Qraestolia Caverns is pretty great, yeah, it just doesn't work well with the SMBX engine and its limited midpoints.

Also if you had some way of implementing a map that would've been amazing and perfect for the level but I dunno how feasible that is.

[Kil]

I won't argue that from a design standpoint Qraestolia Caverns is pretty great, yeah, it just doesn't work well with the SMBX engine and its limited midpoints.

Also if you had some way of implementing a map that would've been amazing and perfect for the level but I dunno how feasible that is.

... now that's a good idea!

[Ditocoaf]

Oh god. If I tried to play that level, I'd want to fully explore everything as I went, and it'd basically kill me. That level is WAAY too big, and it looks like half of the paths are mutually exclusive. I'd never, ever be able to shake the feeling that I'm missing something important, and it'd be unendingly stressful and unfun.

[Voltgloss]

I took care of the cave's second leek, but thanks for the head's up re: the sibbling capsule having a secret exit leading to a unique level + main exit finishing the world, I'll keep that in mind.

In addition, the "flying airships" level you unlocked earlier also has two exits.

[sedron]

Today, we get two levels, one of which is ever-so-slightly larger than the other.

Fun With A Key- This one has all of the telltale signs of being an early foray into the engine. Vanilla graphics, random enemy selection, haphazard enemy placement, weird landmasses, a set of four Goopas of different colors in a row, trying to shove lots of ideas into one level... all things we've seen before. There wasn't anything in this level that was bad or annoying, really, but it's not easily distinguishable from lots of other levels we've already played. The whole key thing was a cute touch, but that's all this level really has going for it. It's another mediocre level.

Qraestolia Caverns- This level definitely has potential, but I really didn't have fun with it. It's too big. Yes, large, exploratory levels can be done, even in this engine, but a few things need to be done during design. I think the biggest thing that could have been done is just cutting the level into smaller, more distinct pieces. In most Metroidvanias, rooms and areas are distinguishable from one another. Qraestolia Caverns does not do this, which means the player likely won't know where they are or remember what split paths they didn't take. Combined with the wide-open stage design, it easily becomes overwhelming and stressful, which isn't likely the response we want from the player. If the player can enter a room and say "okay, I remember where this leads," then you're on the right track. The way each path rewards players is also very questionable. 3-ups, while nice, are rarely enough reason to look for side paths in a game that hands you a hundred lives per world. The fact that this level has two optional leeks is a major strike against it since both are a pain to find. Every path that doesn't lead to one feels frustrating. If everything led the player to one goal, that would be better. All of that said, it's not like Qraestolia Caverns is without merit. The kneeling mechanic is wonderful, and I'd love to see it used elsewhere. It adds a layer of strategic depth rarely seen in SMBX while being technically impressive. The atmosphere is cool when it isn't being overly oppressive in combination with the level design. The paths themselves are pretty well thought-out. These pros don't really outweigh the cons for me, though. Personal opinion and preference definitely play a role, but I think there are things that could have been done to make this level more enjoyable for a higher number of players.

[Crow]

On the subject of the character switching via kneeling mechanic,

it *is* far better utilized in a later level while also being a direct reference to another game, which I quite loved.

[sedron]

On the subject of the character switching via kneeling mechanic,

it *is* far better utilized in a later level while also being a direct reference to another game, which I quite loved.

Really? I don't remember that at all.

[KobaBeach]

Wait SAJewers is the Turrican guy too

I thought he was just the TurboGrafx-16 guy

ALSO IT'S PRONOUNCED "EES" NOT "WISE" DAMNIT raocow

[Ditocoaf]

You could've probably maintained all those paths as a labyrinth, but decreased the "impossible to explore" factor just by... compressing things, a bit. The distance from intersection A to intersection B doesn't need to be that far, you could cut out some of the empty space that "pads" one landscape feature from another, and make some of the vertical drops/climbs shorter. If you did that, the exploration would feel 500 times more "manageable". The player could more easily wrap their head around the level layout as they played.

[ztarwuff]

You could've probably maintained all those paths as a labyrinth, but decreased the "impossible to explore" factor just by... compressing things, a bit. The distance from intersection A to intersection B doesn't need to be that far, you could cut out some of the empty space that "pads" one landscape feature from another, and make some of the vertical drops/climbs shorter. If you did that, the exploration would feel 500 times more "manageable". The player could more easily wrap their head around the level layout as they played.

I'm sure he could have done that but deleting sections from a level is a pain in the arse. When I had to do it, I just put some useless scenery in the part I cut out, and a warp pipe linking to the now disjointed areas of my level. You'll see it when raocow plays it in World 8.

[YelseyKing]

Ugggh. Qraestolia Caverns. *This* is my least favorite stage in world 6. I can appreciate what SAJewers was going for here, but... well, pretty much everyone (particularly sedron) has already said most of what I wanted to say on the subject: it's too big, there's a lot to find and no clear way of knowing where any of it is without exploring every single path, and there's also a lot of paths that just loop back around to each other with no special reason to take one over the other.

But honestly, as someone who's heavily into RPGs, that shouldn't have bothered me... and indeed, that wasn't *the* reason I found that stage so frustrating. It was the character change gimmick. That, I have to admit, was a totally cool idea. The problem is, it just didn't work, in more ways than one. For starters, the stage was basically set up so that every section could be passed with every character anyhow. But the big thing that annoyed me, and made the stage feel so stressful, was that switching from Demo/Iris to Kood (and beyond) took away your reserve powerup, but did *not* actually give those characters a third life point. With my 360 controller, accidentally switching was frighteningly easy to do, so it felt like at any point in time, I could've effectively taken a hit even if nothing was around me. If there was a way to keep that reserve item, or have it at least translate to a third life point for the non-cyclopes, I'd be fine with it. But as it is, it feels glitchy, unnecessary, and with the potential to do more harm than good.

[Zygl]

Yeah that was my least favorite level in the first 7 worlds, honestly. Way too many paths, almost none of them having anything interesting going on to the point that I just watched the video and didn't recognize the vast majority of it. Plus most of them only lead to lives and powerups, which are only worthwhile if you have a life shortage or got hit at some point. Finding anything actually important is like finding a needle in a haystack. I liked the gimmick (even though it seemed way too easy to trigger by accident) and the music was pretty great, but that's about it, the level itself was just not fun for me.

Also I liked Fun With a Key's gimmick, though I spent way more time than I probably should've trying to subvert it.

[Joseph Staleknight]

Today, we reunite a family, then go spelunking. And spelunking...and spelunking...

I hope Demo and Co brought a lunch or two. Or seven.

Fun With A Key (Phencer42): This level is a pretty simple romp through a cavern full of enemies, though to get the leek you do have to bring the Key Child with you to the end. I don't mind, though, especially when Key Fu is a viable option against several of the enemies. That said, some of them are very risky to bash with the key--especially the Catoboos whose lava pools can melt the poor key to sapient and traumatized slag. I also enjoyed the music choice for this level; it feels so sublime and mystical, like a fog-filled Lost World deep underground (not that there's going to be much Lost World here, but whatever). Overall, a neat interlude before the behemoth that is Qraestolia Caverns.

I never did find out how the Key Dad would have responded to his kid going missing, but I bet it would have ended in tragedy.

Qraestolia Caverns (SAJewers): Wow, this cavern is monstrous! Not only is it very labyrinthine and confusing, there's also two things to find before leaving. One of which is another leek! No wonder I had to look in the editor in my beta playthrough to navigate my way around. I don't blame raocow for being awestruck and generally nonplussed here.

Still, the level's gimmick was pretty unique; sure, you could switch characters outside of levels, but why not inside? You know, make it an actual team effort to get those leeks? The only quirk that I think would need changing for a future level with said gimmick would be how powerups are handlded; currently, the game forgets who had which powerups and just decides to equip everyone with the same thing. Sure, it's convenient for the game, but not for the player when they have something in the reserve box as either cyclops sister or get hit. I remember having that onion I found early in the level that I sadly let go of when I grabbed a Gourd and cycled through everyone to get Iris and her larger jumps. Turns out, Tanooki/Raccoon raocow would have had the advantage there due to his double jump. Maybe in a sequel that issue might be fixed, especially if that LunaLUA thing gets off the ground.

As for the house at the end of the caverns, I thought it was neat how SAJ reused the "Kneel before the MASTER" shrine to summon forth the leek raocow eventually got first. Originally, it was going to explain how the gimmick worked, but I guess it didn't translate well (even with a big II by the side) so he had to use something more direct instead. Speaking of custom assets, there's some really neat graphics for the cave. Makes it all look dark and foreboding, fitting for something grimly epic. The entire level, despite it's labyrinthine structure, certainly has a very good quality to it; by this point I should expect as such when SAJ makes a full level.

Also, I think SAJ might have done some decent worldbuilding for the Anti-Nirvana planet. After all, "Qraestolia Caverns" and "Xelenet Village" sound quite exotic, though "Undecember 54, 2076" might need some refining.

Notes From the Spire V:

14. "In caverns of the lava lands strike down and down again, to summon the powers of one's most loyal friend. Then follow pipes of silver bright and the first prize you'll find; the second needs a golden key to its secrets unwind." (Qraestolia Caverns): Essentially, a textual tutorial on the level gimmick and hints/general directions to the leeks, in order. Also, heck yeah shoehorning for rhyme!

Now, starting tomorrow things are going to be picking up here in real life, so my playthrough will be later in the day then. Still, I'll make sure I give my two cents after watching raocow's LP!

[sedron]

On the subject of the character switching via kneeling mechanic,

it *is* far better utilized in a later level while also being a direct reference to another game, which I quite loved.

Really? I don't remember that at all.

Giana Sisters Test Section in Final Level

The last time I played that section was during playtesting, and I don't remember that gimmick being in place. I also beat it on my first try, so I could have just forgotten since I spent very little time there.

[Sebby19]

The problem I have with the library hint for this level is that all the pipes are silver.

[Bean]

Almost caught up. World 5 was pretty interesting in its randomness. Then again, the whole game's been like that.

[Leet]

Frickin Qauaeaiaoueauestrolia... one of three levels I looked at the editor and/or playtesting videos for the secret exits/leeks, the other two being Fun Fungus Function and one we haven't seen yet where I was just being dumb.

I do like the "huge cave huge adventure all the team is here" feeling it has, though. I'm glad it's here, I just... probably don't wanna do that again xP

[yogui]

Yeah Queathing cavern was too big, and I though the character change gimmick served absolutely no purpose to the level other than saying "hey look at this fancy thing we can do with lunarddl". I used cheats to get the leaks and don't regreat cheating.
As of now there's only 2.5 levels I don't liked in the game, the others being the 1 level screen (I don't liked the first one in asmbxt and don't like this one either either) and the secret leak of fun fungus fing (counting as 0.5).

[Alice]

Today, we reunite a family, then go spelunking. And spelunking...and spelunking...

I hope Demo and Co brought a lunch or two. Or seven.

Qraestolia Caverns (SAJewers): The only quirk that I think would need changing for a future level with said gimmick would be how powerups are handlded; currently, the game forgets who had which powerups and just decides to equip everyone with the same thing. Sure, it's convenient for the game, but not for the player when they have something in the reserve box as either cyclops sister or get hit. I remember having that onion I found early in the level that I sadly let go of when I grabbed a Gourd and cycled through everyone to get Iris and her larger jumps. Turns out, Tanooki/Raccoon raocow would have had the advantage there due to his double jump. Maybe in a sequel that issue might be fixed, especially if that LunaLUA thing gets off the ground.

Isn't this quirk an issue with how LunaDLL handles switching characters? It's been awhile since I remember reading about why that happens but wouldn't Kil (or maybe whoever's doing the script for the level?) be able to fix it simply by making the game keep track of all character's current powerup states and reserve powerups rather than only the current one?

[SAJewers]

Today, we reunite a family, then go spelunking. And spelunking...and spelunking...

I hope Demo and Co brought a lunch or two. Or seven.

Qraestolia Caverns (SAJewers): The only quirk that I think would need changing for a future level with said gimmick would be how powerups are handlded; currently, the game forgets who had which powerups and just decides to equip everyone with the same thing. Sure, it's convenient for the game, but not for the player when they have something in the reserve box as either cyclops sister or get hit. I remember having that onion I found early in the level that I sadly let go of when I grabbed a Gourd and cycled through everyone to get Iris and her larger jumps. Turns out, Tanooki/Raccoon raocow would have had the advantage there due to his double jump. Maybe in a sequel that issue might be fixed, especially if that LunaLUA thing gets off the ground.

Isn't this quirk an issue with how LunaDLL handles switching characters?

Yeah, it's a LunaDLL thing.

[jayScribble]

We have to go deeper.

The "second" leek of "Qraestolia Caverns" seem to only be reached by using a certain powerup to get there, and even then there's the risk of losing it along the way.

"Xelenet Village" is sort of depressing both inside and outside. Overall, while it may give you nearly all the powerups and mounts, the atmosphere of the town seems too down.

"The Descent" is a cave with winding pathways and fairly tight ceilings, and as a result some different behavior from some enemies that can catch someone by surprise, and as the level has shown, there are surprises.

[Kil]

Today, we reunite a family, then go spelunking. And spelunking...and spelunking...

I hope Demo and Co brought a lunch or two. Or seven.

Qraestolia Caverns (SAJewers): The only quirk that I think would need changing for a future level with said gimmick would be how powerups are handlded; currently, the game forgets who had which powerups and just decides to equip everyone with the same thing. Sure, it's convenient for the game, but not for the player when they have something in the reserve box as either cyclops sister or get hit. I remember having that onion I found early in the level that I sadly let go of when I grabbed a Gourd and cycled through everyone to get Iris and her larger jumps. Turns out, Tanooki/Raccoon raocow would have had the advantage there due to his double jump. Maybe in a sequel that issue might be fixed, especially if that LunaLUA thing gets off the ground.

Isn't this quirk an issue with how LunaDLL handles switching characters? It's been awhile since I remember reading about why that happens but wouldn't Kil (or maybe whoever's doing the script for the level?) be able to fix it simply by making the game keep track of all character's current powerup states and reserve powerups rather than only the current one?

You could save your reserve box powerup in a variable and restore it later. But I think I only added variables like 1.5 months ago.

[Sebby19]

For some reason, The Descent gave me a lot of trouble, for no good reason. I think the midpoint should have been placed during or before the skull raft portion (another one spawns halfway through if you miss the original).

I do like that the ending of The Descent leads into the next level. Always have to like level continuity. Too bad raocow couldn't play both in the same day.

[Unaniem]

Brief Descent dev commentary:

This stage used to be quite different in its first few drafts. Primarily, McGuffin actually put up a fight.

A big fight.

A fight that was considerably TOO big to be fun.

My idea for the Golden Hare species actually goes beyond just making an appearance in A2XT, and actually exists in a bunch of solo projects of mine. They are actually supposed to be (semi) immortal, more specifically; they have five lives and then turn into a ghost. The original fight was based around this original concept of the Hares, and you had to throw McGuffin in the lava five times for each respective life (with widely varying arenas) and a final showdown with the ghost form as a Mother brain in a cramped arena (and as a bonus: the stage used to have a split path option right before that lava raft section (the other path leading to what is now the second half) and the midpoint used to be placed at the area with the three roman 'I's just because of that huge boss fight).

I was definitely far too ambitious when I first made this stage.
But I'm glad the play testers during the submission phase thought the same.

The McGuffin fight got removed entirely for what is there now (which suits the stage and his personality much better) and the stage overall got revised a bunch of times (mainly just the removal of more enemies and generally making the stage easier and more fun to play + graphical touch-ups) and now we have what we have now.